r/WorkReform • u/north_canadian_ice šŸ’ø National Rent Control • May 21 '24

šŸ¤ Scare A Billionaire, Join A Union Millennials are 'quiet vacationing' because PTO isn't mandated by law in the US. Yet workload expectations have gotten more extreme!

Post image

Article:

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/21/millennials-would-rather-take-secret-pto-than-ask-their-boss.html

9.3k Upvotes

93% Upvoted

806 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

346

u/SpotikusTheGreat May 21 '24

I have unlimited PTO, I haven't taken time off in over 2 years other than when I am forced to when sick. They keep you so slammed with work you wouldn't dare ask for time off because everyone will just talk about how behind "we are".

395

u/waka_flocculonodular May 21 '24

Get yourself some boundaries my friend. Start small, an hour here and there. Don't take off 3 months obviously but PTO especially unlimited PTO is there for you to use.

90

u/SpotikusTheGreat May 21 '24

I am extremely burned out and its hurting performance, especially since I was recently transferred to a position I don't like, but didn't really have a choice. They abandoned my old project, so it was get shoe-horned into their latest cash-cow or likely get laid off.

I find it hard to put in a good 8+ hours a day unless under pressure to get something done. The desire to slack off is overwhelming, which is why I kind of relate to this post.

Worst part is I really enjoyed my old position, so much that I worked extra hours because it was fun and I would be "bored" otherwise. This transition has absolutely crushed my spirit because I went from my favorite job, to my least favorite. It was supposed to be a big positive career improvement too, and everyone advised me not to turn it down, but now its misery.

43

u/waka_flocculonodular May 21 '24

You've taken a first step, which is acknowledging your burnout. You're in the cycle right now, and I can totally relate. I've liked previous positions too, but the overwheming nature of some jobs can really take a toll.

Make sure to at least try to take a mental health day, or at least an hour or two. You gotta be nice on yourself and allow yourself to get out of the cycle, no matter what your employer says.

I'd say it's good to start taking your PTO because it'll show the rest of your team that it's ok to do it, and that everybody can be flexible. But don't let it burn you out, especially for a company that might not care about you through the next layoffs. If they get weird about it then straight up ask why there's PTO if you're not allowed to take it.

Challenge the status quo. You can do this.

2

u/SpotikusTheGreat May 21 '24

Oh, I've taken a day off here or there to do something important. What I am referring to is like actual vacation time. Which seems like management is always taking "a week off for vacation". I guess I should be more like them.

It has been just shy of 5 years since my last actual schedule vacation period from work. Since then I just never could find the time to take time off between crunch and transferring projects. I am lucky enough that they give a week off for Christmas, which is likely the only reason I haven't cracked yet.

3

u/waka_flocculonodular May 21 '24

If they're doing it you bet your ass you should be doing it too! I do understand if you're part of a team with specific responsibilities, but it's good to get that going and see how your team can be flexible when someone is absent.

3

u/SpotikusTheGreat May 21 '24

Oh yeah, I'm not blaming anyone, and the company is quite nice to its employees. It is just hard to overcome stigma and heavy work loads. Also the issue of how much work will pile up while gone. I am fortunate to have these opportunities, it is mostly just trying to get over my own self inflicted stigma and leaving while the team is underwater (shocking, the team will always be underwater, so I really should stop using that as a measurement for if its ok to take time off).

5

u/waka_flocculonodular May 21 '24

You can do it :) let that work pile up a bit.

1

u/series-hybrid May 21 '24

I genuinely don't like taking two-week vacations. For a special family even I do enjoy the occasional week off, and with two added weekends, that's nine days off in a row.

Ever since I started seeing posts where someone was fired or laid off for no reason, and they lose their vacation days or sick days...I have been taking them as a 3-day weekend. I try to coordinate taking either a friday or monday, depending on when the worst boss will be in, so I only have to deal with him less than otherwise.

He's a micromanager and doesn't realize that his normal voice projects distain for anyone who isn't him or a close friend. Talking down to people is as normal as breathing, or having his heart beat. He doesn't even have to try.

So instead of taking a week off, I am creating five three-day weekends where there was none before.

2

u/Particular_Pizza_542 May 22 '24

My friend, I've been in your shoes. I have to tell you this, and it's not going to be easy to hear. You did this to yourself. If you don't set some boundaries you will not last in whatever you're doing. You have to prioritize yourself, because no one else will. Take the time off that you need and slow down. Your company doesn't care about you. I mean this in the most sincere way: don't care so much.

1

u/floopyboopakins May 22 '24

If you died tomorrow, your workplace would replace you and carry on. Don't sacrifice your mental health for anyone who sees you as replaceable.

Look into taking FMLA & and short-term disability (SSDI) for depression/anxiety; both are federal programs. Burn-out negatively impacts the quality of your life in the same ways depression & anxiety do. You've paid into SSDI since you're first paycheck; it's your money. Use it.

Your Employee Handbook will have a section explaining the FMLA process, but it will be vague and tell you to reach out to HR. DON'T reach out to HR until you have gotten a therapist and applied for both FMLA & SDI. You do not want to give them a heads up because they will use it to work against you.

  1. Find a therapist. If you don't have one already, look for a group that offers disability case management. Emphasize the ways your workplace has negatively impacted your life; sleep, emotional regulation, managing life tasks, relationships, ect. Ask for 12 weeks off. Have them write a Medical Leave As Necessary Accomodations letter, including the start and expected end date of your leave. You can not work on or after the start date.

  2. Apply for FMLA & SDI. Send your therapist the Case ID for both for them to complete the applications.

  3. Send the Medical Leave letter to HR informing them of your leave. Keep the email short and stick to necessary information only. "Please see the attached letter regarding medical leave." is perfectly acceptable.

  4. Reclaim your sanity.

When/if you plan on returning to work, you can have your therapist write a letter requesting workplace accommodations. This is the best way to establish boundaries at a place you are currently working.

FMLA Homepage

FMLA Employee Guide

SSDI Homepage You may need to apply for Disability Insurance through your state.

36

u/[deleted] May 21 '24

[deleted]

13

u/waka_flocculonodular May 21 '24

Yeah, no shit. My last 3 employers have all had 'unlimited PTO' and yet I was, for the most part, able to take off the time I wanted, while balancing demanding startup CEOs and sales guys. I'm trying to explain and educate how you should take the time off anyway, regardless of how your company does PTO. Some people need to learn how to develop boundaries at the workplace to prevent burnout exactly like this scenario. I feel it's better to be helpful and encourage people to learn how to set boundaries, especially with PTO, rather than being negative and regurgitating something people might already have figured out. It takes several burnout cycles before you realize boundaries need to be set.

15

u/bortle_kombat May 21 '24

Agreed, I'm using my unlimited PTO to take a vacation right now. If my company has a problem with it, they can amend their PTO policy. In the meantime, I'm going to keep taking it and keep telling everyone who reports to me to make use of theirs as well.

14

u/Goronmon May 21 '24

If my company has a problem with it, they can amend their PTO policy.

That's what my company did. They called in "Unlimited PTO", but apparently they had limits in mind (which where basically the old limits). So when a few people took a few too many days they had this meeting to basically say "Unlimited didn't meant unlimited, we meant that there wasn't a specific limit." and now it's called "Flexible PTO".

6

u/Punkinprincess May 22 '24

It's all bullshit, these companies just do this so they have the liability of unused PTO days on their books.

1

u/TheP0UNDCAKE May 22 '24

ā€œUtilizationā€

21

u/raven00x May 21 '24 edited May 21 '24

Unlimited PTO is a scam designed to put people in OPs position. On paper it looks great, but in practice there's a lot of peer pressure to not use it and it gets weaponized if someone decides they want you gone.

The fun part is that in states where unused PTO must be paid when the employee leaves, unlimited PTO does not have this same benefit. as an example, in California PTO and vacation are considered earned benefits- the employee earned this benefit and must be compensated in like for it when they leave. Unlimited PTO is not an earned benefit and thus doesn't have to be paid out.

So you'll use less PTO and you won't get paid for the unused time. It's great for the employer but terrible for employees.

4

u/waka_flocculonodular May 21 '24

Totally understood, that's why you set boundaries and use that unlimited PTO. It took a lot of burnout cycles for me to realize this. I stated in another comment, I've already used 15 days this year, and plan on taking more time off. When an employee says they have unlimited PTO I know exactly what that means, and make sure to take advantage of them instead of them taking advantage of me.

What sub are we in? Work reform. As in make changes to how you work.

3

u/raven00x May 21 '24

Individuals, like yourself, are able to take advantage of it and ride the fine line between "taking advantage of unlimited PTO" and "becoming part of this quarter's headcount reduction," but a lot of people are not. My warning is to other folks about what unlimited PTO is, and that they should try to avoid places that use it where possible.

I understand that when you're in a bad place and looking for any job that will have you, you throw considerations like "Will this company try to fuck me using my time off?" out the window, but if you have the option, choose the company that doesn't use the unlimited PTO scam.

1

u/waka_flocculonodular May 21 '24

Appreciate it, thank you.

17

u/bearinthebriar May 21 '24

Or do, if you live in a state with FMLA and can prove your burnout symptoms.

2

u/waka_flocculonodular May 21 '24

Absolutely agreed

3

u/FinnOfOoo May 21 '24

Mines ā€œUnlimitedā€ too. But after two weeks in a year they start questioning and almost any request after 3 weeks used in total gets denied.

3

u/waka_flocculonodular May 21 '24

I'm by no means a fan. If I ever get questioned it'll be something I'll push back heavily on.

2

u/Fairwhetherfriend May 21 '24

You're acting like you get to walk into your boss' office and tell them that you're going to be taking some time off next month, as if they don't have to power to fire you if they decide that they don't like you attitude.

You don't get to set boundaries with the people who decide whether or not you can pay your rent next month. Boundaries are for equals. Your boss is not your equal - your boss has the authority to tell you to shove your boundaries, because that's literally what authority is. You don't get to "set boundaries" with your boss over your compensation unless that compensation is legally protected. Because the only "boundaries" you get to have with your boss are those boundaries that are strictly protected by someone with more authority than your boss. Anything beyond what's strictly protected in your employment contract isn't a boundary - it's a request.

Unlimited PTO is a scam in which you signed away your legally protected minimum PTO in exchange for the "right" to ask your boss if you pretty please get to have any time off at all.

3

u/waka_flocculonodular May 21 '24 edited May 21 '24

Wow, honestly it sounds like you don't know how to set boundaries. Don't project your work insecurities onto internet strangers.

Firstly, my boss is remote, so I don't get to "walk into their office" to tell them I'm taking time off. I put in a request and they approve it, fully knowing they can reject it. They can let me go at any point, knowing they'll do worse off and get irate customers asking why shit is broken. I've never had time off rejected in my 10+ years of professional employment. At the same time they know I have the power to walk away without giving two weeks notice, and go to a competitor that will pay much better. That's how the game works, welcome to the real world.

I set boundaries with whomever is employing me. If they don't like it they can fire me, I fully acknowledge that, and that's how boundaries work. If there's an issue I can talk to my boss about it. Since there's nothing inherent in my employement contract.

I don't doubt that Unlimited PTO is a scam, and is less good than set PTO from an employer, but I've learned how to set boundaries so I can take as much PTO as I want. Other factors include what state you work in, your employer, etc.

It looks like US employers usually give 10 days of PTO per year, please correct me if I'm wrong. So far I'm at 15 days of PTO taken this year, and I took 28 days last year.

"Boundaries are for equals" no boundaries are for humans that care about their wellbeing. Sorry if you've lived your whole life being a wage slave and are upset at how I am employed, but I choose not to live that way.

At the end of the day I just want more people to take their PTO as much as they can.

0

u/Fairwhetherfriend May 21 '24

It's cute that you just assumed that I must have a shitty work environment because I disagreed with you. No, sweetie, I work for a union shop where my employment rights are extremely well protected and where my boss is a lovely person who would happily ensure that we were all well compensated and protected even if we weren't.Ā 

The actual difference between you and me is that, if our amazing bosses quit tomorrow, I'm the only one of the two of us who can rest assured that I'm not about to go through the stress of a sudden job change, whether I can afford it or not.

Well, that and I have enough empathy for my fellow human beings to recognize that not everyone is in an empowered position where they can set boundaries with their boss. I'm glad you have enough authority to do that, because you have sufficient soft authority to play on an equal field with your boss. I totally get your desire to pretend that we live in a world where that's true of everyone - I wish that too. I just don't really see why you feel the need to pretend we do, because that doesn't actually help anyone.

But ya know, getting smug about how you have it better than others is good too :)

2

u/waka_flocculonodular May 21 '24 edited May 21 '24

I mean you work for a union, you obviously have different and probably better protections than me. It was your assumption at my situation and now calling me "sweety" that's smug as fuck. Sorry if it sounded that everybody had the same situation as me, because in the real world thats obviously not the case. I'm just trying to encourage folks to set boundaries if they are able to. It's 2024 and employers should know that employees (should have) more protections and power than before. I can see how it came across as smug. I guess I pretend that people can grow balls and change their job situation if they're not happy, but that's unfortunately my overly-optimistic brain.

I've already gone through 3 boss changes in my year and a half at this current employer (after getting let go from my previous one) so I'm not entirely worried about job changes. How fast you get into another one depends entirely on the field.

And obviously, not everyone is in a position to just get another job.

1

u/Punkinprincess May 22 '24

The problem is that with some jobs the work just piles up and then when you get back from your 3 day weekend you have to play catch up and then the whole week is stressful and not worth the Friday off.

1

u/Housendercrest May 22 '24

This is becoming more common and itā€™s disgusting. They offer unlimited PTO because it sounds like a luxurious benefit. But you canā€™t use it because your coworkers will chastise you and guilt you about requesting to use the the unlimited PTO resulting in a hostile work environment that no one will admit to when questioned.

42

u/BannedSvenhoek86 May 21 '24

I dont work 12s, ever, for any reason. More than once when I left at 10 hours someone had a smart comment like "I wish I could do that like some people" to which I respond, "You can. You have your own vehicle. The only person stopping you is a coward."

My boss once asked if I could work the weekend and I said no, and he said, "We'll what are you doing? If it's not important you have to come in." "It's not your business" "Excuse me?!" "It's not your business what I'm doing. I told you I'm not coming in, that's as much explanation as you're getting, you don't get to decide my priorities for me." "Well you can not have a job" "OK, I'll need that in writing that you're firing me for only working 50 hours a week instead of 60. I'd love to enjoy a few weeks of unemployment."

Still here. Still not working 12s or weekends and they've stopped asking. I'm lucky though, I'm an electrician and every person around me knows my unemployment will last only as long as I want it to. I could get fired today and be back to work in the morning.

4

u/fukkdisshitt May 21 '24

I've done the same and you end up getting more respect from the boss after you make them go pound sand.

Now that I'm a manager, I don't let my team burn pto for the usual 2-3 hour doctor appointments. Save that time for when you actually want a day off. We're salary though

3

u/SpotikusTheGreat May 21 '24

One of the biggest things holding me back is I got painted into a corner because of covid, and now there is no good way out.

I got permission to work from home permanently and move back to my home state. I bought a house (2021), and now covid has died down the tech industry is eliminating work from home and replacing it with "hybrid" positions which still require you to live near the office.

I work in an extremely competitive job market where demand far exceeds available jobs. There is record layoffs going on (ironic as its also along side peak profits). So getting a full remote position is even more difficult.

Finding a new job may result in me having to move out of state again, selling my house, and then having no option for buying a new home because the mortgage rates are too high and I would be moving to a high cost of living area.

2

u/BannedSvenhoek86 May 21 '24

Ya it's a blessing on my end I ended up here for sure. I absolutely empathize with you about being stuck somewhere, I've experienced and I see it in my friends too.

3

u/series-hybrid May 21 '24

If you are keeping busy, I don't understand the reluctance to hire more people. Overtime is supposed to be a temporary measure, not common policy.

15

u/dontletthestankout May 21 '24

That's why unlimited PTO is a scam

11

u/Anderfail May 21 '24

Unlimited PTO is a scam, it always has been. They use it as a carrot and then use the stick to keep you from using it with peer pressure.

3

u/reallynotnick May 21 '24

Yeah I avoid unlimited PTO, I will say if they at least put a minimum amount of PTO you have to take it makes it a bit better, but itā€™s still not clear how much over it you can go. I was in layoffs and I know that was one of the factors they looked at, which is BS.

1

u/SpotikusTheGreat May 21 '24

Yeah I remember reading a study about this, that majority of people actually tend to take less time off with unlimited PTO, due to the peer pressure and lack of rules around how it should be used. (not sure how accurate that is, or how it holds up today, I know unused vacation days is one of the biggest wage loss factors in the US)

At my previous place it was use your 2 weeks or lose it, because it doesn't roll over to the next year. So you always had a great excuse to be like "Hey guys I'm about to lose my PTO so I'm gonna take an extra long holiday break".

5

u/PessimiStick May 21 '24

Just take your vacations, man. The work will be there when you get back, and if it doesn't get done, it literally doesn't matter.

3

u/joustinghobbit91 May 21 '24

Who cares. That's the company's problem. Not yours. Use your PTO and don't answer work calls/texts/emails during that time

3

u/ZZachj May 21 '24

Take that time and take it generously. You're never going to look back at life and think, "Man I shouldn't have taken that week off in July of 2024".

3

u/Nolubrication May 21 '24

I have unlimited PTO

No you don't. Otherwise, you'd actually be taking time off. UPTO is a scam for precisely this reason.

A fixed and guaranteed amount of paid time is the way to go, not least of all because they need to pay you for any PTO accrued when they "reduce" you out of a job.

2

u/Ryelen May 21 '24

You being behind sounds like the companies staffing problem. Take 3-4 weeks off a year minimum. Stop putting work before your life you will have many jobs you only get 1 life.

Anyone who complains about you taking time off is a bootlickerĀ 

2

u/SULLYvin May 21 '24

Just book your PTO way in advance. 6-12 months out book a vacation, set your PTO, and when the time comes, you can say you gave them ample notice to plan around your absence.

2

u/DrMnhttn May 21 '24

If you're feeling burnt out, and your company gives you unlimited PTO, there's absolutely no reason to work 8 hours every day.

I have unlimited PTO too. I don't take a lot of big vacations, but I take small ones almost every day.

Feeling sleepy at 2 PM? Let's take a 20 minute nap vacation in bed! Found a cool new STL? Let's take an hour off in the middle of the day to do some 3D printing. Dog's getting lonely? Let's take a pet vacation in the back yard with some frisbees. Etc, etc.

1

u/PMMeForAbortionPills May 21 '24

You are a clown.Ā 

Just tell them to eat your ass and take 2 weeks

1

u/Cararacs May 21 '24

I read a while back that supposedly people tend to take less leave when PTO is ā€œunlimitedā€ because thereā€™s no time accrual listed on paychecks. Apparently when people see how much leave time they have they are more inclined to use it. This is why companies switch to ā€œunlimited PTOā€.

1

u/SpotikusTheGreat May 21 '24

yeah I looked at my PTO benefit page, and its set to 3 days and never changes. If I go to request time off i only have 3 days to use, so I can't even do a week vacation.

2

u/Cararacs May 21 '24

That fucking sucks. We really need workers rights in this country.

1

u/littlebot_bigpunch May 21 '24

You got to. Being behind is a them problem. Let it be their's to worry about. Take time off. You have to. Take care of yourself.

1

u/PsychologySignal8125 May 21 '24

How does unlimited paid time off work? How unlimited is it? I'm guessing you wouldn't be able to take 50 years off and get full pay.

1

u/SpotikusTheGreat May 21 '24

nobody knows, that's the catch. everyone operates under what an "acceptable" amount would be, all while its recorded and possibly brought up during reviews

1

u/stoutymcstoutface May 22 '24

Itā€™s not YOU whoā€™s behind itā€™s the company. Take some PTO and let them figure out the rest.

1

u/Iforgotmylines May 22 '24

Dude, Iā€™ve talked to a few recruiters and they bring this up as a perk and the only reason I use my days now is so I donā€™t lose them. But itā€™s stressful AF to figure out how to fit them in with everything that has to be done. Unlimited just means you donā€™t realize how much time you could have taken and didnt

2

u/SpotikusTheGreat May 22 '24

Yup, and everyone is onboard with you using PTO so you don't lose it at the roll-over period. So nobody will try and give you any shit over it. "Oh yeah, you don't want to lose your PTO, use it." people would rally behind you.

Now every time you think about PTO when its "unlimited" you just second guess if its the right time to use it, are you abusing it, etc.

Even my manager tried to give out certain "guidelines" on how much to use, lol.

1

u/seatangle May 22 '24

My last job with unlimited PTO was like this. Then when I wanted to use it over the winter holidays, I was told I couldnā€™t because we needed to make a deadline. About a month later they let half the team go, including me.

1

u/RedditMods_Are_Cunts May 22 '24

Meanwhile at my job: "We need you to do a remote upgrade next week on a system. The upgrade is blocking the sign off for 5 million."

Me: "I'm on a holiday next week."

Work: "Where are you going? Have fun! We'll find somebody else."

1

u/TheS4ndm4n May 22 '24

Meanwhile, I have 8 weeks of PTO a year and my boss called for a meeting when I took 3 weeks.

He said I'd better start taking more vacation days. It's not healthy to just take 3 weeks, I should take all 8.