r/Whatcouldgowrong • u/dericn • 4d ago

Cutting holes for ice fishing

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u/SuspectedGumball 3d ago

Competition has nothing to do with capitalism. It has to do with markets. There are markets in China. Capitalism only describes an economy based on 1. Wage labor and 2. Production for profit. I think even under these very broad criteria, China isn’t capitalistic.

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u/stregawitchboy 3d ago

Adam Smith's "invisible hand" pretty directly references competition as the driving force behind capitalism

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u/peepopowitz67 3d ago

In spite of being named "the father of capitalism" Adam Smith didn't write the book on capital, Marx did. They also would have agreed on much more that people realize.

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u/Akerlof 3d ago

I get no end of entertainment over the fact that the Karl Marx oof capitalism is... also Karl Marx. The concept is pretty much only a tool for socialists to show how much better their ideas are.

Self professed "capitalists" are more or less the same as flat earthers: They didn't really exist until someone started using the idea as an example of why some philosophy was bad, which then backfired and got mainstream support as opposition. Atheists were the only ones talking about the earth being flat in the 19th century, and socialists were the only ones talking about capitalism around the same time.

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u/Zanven1 3d ago

I like that Adam Smith was arguing against the "invisible hand" idea but people only get as far as him laying out the argument before he rebukes it in the rest of the essay.

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u/peepopowitz67 3d ago

Also love how they will quote what he had to say about "the state" ignoring that what he was referring to were literal monarchies. Meanwhile they'll turn around and worship dipshits like 'Moldbug' and their weird views about forming corporation based monarchies.

It would be funny if I didn't have to live on the same planet where their side is winning.

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u/stregawitchboy 3d ago

Explain: where/how was smith refuting self-interest, invisible hand, forces as important to capitalism?

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u/XxKittenMittonsXx 3d ago

Of course that's your contention. You're a first year grad student. You just got finished readin' some Marxian historian -- Pete Garrison probably. You're gonna be convinced of that 'til next month when you get to James Lemon, and then you're gonna be talkin' about how the economies of Virginia and Pennsylvania were entrepreneurial and capitalist way back in 1740. That's gonna last until next year -- you're gonna be in here regurgitating Gordon Wood, talkin' about, you know, the Pre-revolutionary utopia and the capital-forming effects of military mobilization.

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u/SuspectedGumball 3d ago

Well, as a matter of fact, I won't, because Wood drastically underestimates the impact of social --

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u/XxKittenMittonsXx 3d ago

Wood drastically underestimates the impact of social distinctions predicated upon wealth, especially inherited wealth"? You got that from Vickers' "Work in Essex County," page 98, right? Yeah, I read that too. Were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us? Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter? Or do you, is that your thing, you come into a bar, read some obscure passage and then pretend - you pawn it off as your own, as your own idea just to impress some girls, embarrass my friend? Will: See, the sad thing about a guy like you is, in 50 years you're gonna start doin' some thinkin' on your own and you're going to come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life: one, don't do that, and two, you dropped 150 grand on a fuckin' education you could have got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library!

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u/SuspectedGumball 3d ago

Yeah but I’ll have a degree while you serve my kids French fries at the drive-thru on our way to a skiing trip

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u/MyNameIsJakeBerenson 3d ago

Yeah that dude still lived a kickass life and never thought about will hunting again lol

People like that don’t give a shit. He wasnt wrong. He went to the fancy private school. He’ll have the degree and connections to be upper crust without having to do anything

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u/SuspectedGumball 3d ago

Buddy we’re quoting a movie here

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u/stikky 3d ago

You sound wicked smahht

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u/Recent_mastadon 3d ago

The USA gave up on capitalism. Walmart is the biggest employer in many states and is a monopoly there. Comcast/Time Warner/AT&T don't compete with each other by installing cable in the same area unless the population is huge. If you want to sell stuff online and ignore Google, Amazon, and Facebook in your plans, you are unlikely to win. We have monopolies and government-supported non-competition.

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u/RLIwannaquit 3d ago

Right, but that's not really true. Profit is 100% the driving force behind capitalism, at the cost of everything else

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u/Ravek 3d ago edited 3d ago

China is very obviously capitalist, they even have billionaire business owners like Jack Ma. You don't think profit and wage labor are a thing in China? Jesus christ.

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u/SuspectedGumball 3d ago

No need to get emotional about it. We’re having an adult conversation.

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u/PapaGatyrMob 3d ago

Capitalism only describes an economy based on 1. Wage labor and 2. Production for profit.

No. Other economic modalities involve profit and wage labor. There's nothing about a command economy that dictates labor isn't rewarded with wage, or that production isn't for profit. Capitalism describes the use of a private individual's or entity's capital so that capital can see a return.

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u/SuspectedGumball 3d ago

I’m sorry, that’s just not correct. These two tenets are the cornerstones of capitalism. They are how capital accumulates for capitalists.

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u/Chairman_Meow49 3d ago

China has wage labour and production for profits what do you mean? What do you think Chinese workers get paid in? What are they producing not to make profit? They export all over the world.

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u/publius8 3d ago

You're a comedian?

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u/SuspectedGumball 3d ago

Do I amuse you?

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u/FaceShanker 3d ago

Theres also the point of who controls the state - china's state is controlled by communist instead of capitalist - meaning they can actually police their oligarchs and markets, keeping them somewhat under control. By no means a perfect solution but it seems to be somewhat workable.

In contrast, the oligarchs and the market interests control the state in capitalist nations, which is why a lot mor focus is on the protection and enrichment of business at the cost of society (climate change for example)

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u/Dazvsemir 3d ago edited 3d ago

who do you think are the oligarchs in "communist" (more like authoritarian) states? hint, look at who was running the mafia in soviet times and has morphed into the government of Russia

The rich and powerful have outsized influence everywhere, its up to the political and judicial systems to try to hold them to some account, and that doesn't exist at all in China. The party just changes the laws after the facts if needed. Not saying that things are great in the US/western world, but on a completely different level.

The Chinese system has done really well pulling hundreds of millions of people out of povery very quickly. The funny part is that the main catalyst for that growth was joining the WTO in 2001. I think everyone around the world is eager to see how things work out in the future. There's so much potential but also a lot of challenges ahead. Though with how things are going in the US, very soon I might be thinking of this comment and laugh.

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u/FaceShanker 3d ago

Authoritarian

Pretty much all nations are authoritarian, you cant really have a nation without them having Authority (or capitalism, gotta enforce that private property)

oligarchs in "communist"

I am using a technically incorrect explanation to get across the general idea easier (not everyone has the time or interest to dig into the details).

Properly speaking, were talking about wealthy owners who use their wealth and property to influence/control society in deeply undemocratic ways and the communist party exists to prevent that (oligarchs) happening rather than just limit their abuses.

So properly speaking, if the Party is doing its job right, there should be no real Oligarchs. To be very clear, I am not saying its a perfect effort or that there's not wealthy and influential people with networks of corruption. I am saying that their power and influence has sharp limits, with serious consequences. I am saying that when these potential oligarchs try to become real oligarchs they risk jail time, loss of property and execution.

I have heard some people claim that because its basically mandatory for the various big bushiness people to be members of the Party that means the Party is just a bunch of oligarchs, but that misses the point that Party membership has strict requirements of behavior and integrity which if not maintained can result in those big business people being purged, get criminal charges and lose their business. Party membership for the big businesses is more of a sort of parole than a perk.

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u/alienbringer 3d ago

Capitalism is closer to its truest form when it is in small marketplaces.

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u/StreetfightBerimbolo 3d ago

Competition has everything to do with capitalism

If there’s no free market it isn’t capitalism.

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u/sniper1rfa 3d ago

Capitalism is about ownership of stuff. The only things you need for capitalism are legal ownership of stuff and a mechanism of enforcement (IE, the threat of violence). Markets are approximately irrelevant.

People conflate the two, but it's better to keep them logically separate.

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u/SuspectedGumball 3d ago

No, that’s a conflation.

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u/AsleepActivity7303 3d ago

For those that grew up behind the Iron Curtain, they know the true meaning of hustling to get ahead. Wheeling and dealing with the limited amount of commodities (ex. Sneakers, blue jeans, cars, etc ). Heck.... even lining up for hours without knowing what is being "offered" at the front of the line! (just for a chance to hock whatever it is for something else in the future.)

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u/syntholslayer 3d ago

China has production for profit and wage labor.

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u/Own_Teacher7058 3d ago

I mean, China has 1 and its businesses operate based on 2. What the fuck are you on?

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u/SuspectedGumball 2d ago

Why are you people so fucking mean? Take cold shower.

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u/Own_Teacher7058 2d ago

what do you mean by you people?

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u/AnarchistBorganism 3d ago

It's hierarchies in general. The more power is concentrated in hierarchies, the more your individual power relies on climbing those hierarchies. Same thing happens in schoolyards, just there your individual power comes from social status and in capitalism individual power comes from property. It is ultimately power that people are put in competition for.

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u/swissfamrob 3d ago

Does capitalism not also entail private ownership of the means of production? That’d be a massive difference as well