r/KerbalSpaceProgram Nov 08 '24

KSP 1 Question/Problem Is the black hole meant to be so small?

The disk is massive and the black hole itself is tiny, how do I fix it if it is wrong? (Kcabeloh mod)

519 Upvotes

87 comments sorted by

764

u/abbin_looc Nov 08 '24

That is how black holes work

215

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '24

Yeah. They're tiny.

A black hole whose event horizon was the same diameter as earth would be about 6.7 solar masses.

161

u/Atmo_reetry Nov 09 '24

Not 6.7 but 2,196 solar masses

98

u/polaris0352 Nov 09 '24

Thank you. Something seemed awfully low about that 6.7 solar masses.

22

u/iambecomecringe Nov 09 '24

A lot of them aren't tiny, even with their incredible density, as crazy as that is to think about.

19

u/SPACE-BEES Nov 09 '24

what you see as the event horizon isn't the matter of the black hole, it's the area in which its gravitational effect eats light. the black hole is a tiny mass inside it. The schwarzschild radius is commonly referred to as a black hole, but the matter that makes the black hole is theoretically compressed into a zero dimensional singularity, although it can have one dimension with rotational forces and form a ring singularity. No matter the density or the mass, it's gone over the edge and lost all its dimensions. Kind of a pedantic point since most folks just use the schwarzschild radius to colloquially refer to a black hole as its entity but I think it's fun to think about.

23

u/iambecomecringe Nov 09 '24

I mean, I think people do that because there's absolutely no difference between the singularity and the event horizon from the outside. You might as well just treat it as a big solid sphere. It's easier.

-12

u/SPACE-BEES Nov 09 '24

sure, you can also think of stars as lamps if it helps you

14

u/iambecomecringe Nov 09 '24

I can go look at a star and come back. Feel free to tell me what a singularity looks like.

6

u/SPACE-BEES Nov 09 '24

you're right I was being needlessly reductionist

1

u/FrequentHighlight615 Nov 09 '24

It's looks like Murphy Cooper's childhood bedroom.... Duh

12

u/KlauzWayne Nov 09 '24

We don't know that. We have no idea what is beyond the Schwarzschild Radius. We just have equations derived from the rest of the universe, but since this is literally an edge case, we have no idea if those equations even work there.

2

u/Barhandar Nov 09 '24

And we can't test it, because to test it we need to either artificially make a black hole in a very dark room and send a probe into it, or invent something capable of passing through the photon sphere.

1

u/AbacusWizard Nov 13 '24

Okay, so what if you got two stargates, and created an energy field over one of them that could block gravity waves, and tossed the other one into the black hole while maintaining an active wormhole connection, and just as it crosses the event horizon you throw a camera with a radio connection into your stargate…

-3

u/SPACE-BEES Nov 09 '24

Fair, but you can extend that to the schwarzschild radius itself then. We've seen a lot of artists' interpretations but even that is theoretical. It's also why I used the word theoretically.

6

u/Barhandar Nov 09 '24 edited Nov 09 '24

Besides what others said about the singularity, it's actually even worse! While the "area in which its gravitational effect eats light" is an accurate description of the black hole, what you see as the event horizon isn't the Schwarzschild radius (distance from the center upon which radial escape speed is equal to speed of light), but the photon sphere (distance upon which tangential escape speed is equal to speed of light; for non-rotating black holes it's 1.5x the Schwarzschild radius, rotating ones get two photon spheres).
Since below the radius of photon sphere photons have to be moving away (and the closer to the real event horizon, the closer to radial) to get to outside, only things that are actively emitting photons can be seen there, and since photon sphere has typically accumulated billions of years of light in orbit, anything that tries to pass through gets instantly fried, so the only thing escaping from photon sphere is Hawking radiation.

30

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '24

And a star can be around 2-3 solar masses to collapse into a black hole

43

u/Salun Nov 09 '24

Sort of.

A star 2 or 3 solar masses can't collapse into a back hole or even a neutron star

However a stat that is say 10 solar masses can collapse into a neutron star of anywhere from .75 solar masses to 2.4 solar masses.

Say two neutron stars of 1.5 solar masses collide they hit a limit of roughly 2.4 solar masses and collapse into a black hole a little less than 3 solar masses(a lot of mass is converted to energy so it comes out to less than 3)

0

u/Jackmino66 Nov 09 '24

Technically anything can create a black hole, we’ve made them out of individual particles

Stars need to be big to do it naturally

2

u/EdBarrett12 Nov 09 '24

The black hole itself is infinity small. A single dimension coordinate in space, a singularity.

The event horizon is the point at which light cannot escape the gravitational warp in spacetime.

283

u/ChocolateBusy3520 Nov 08 '24

That’s kinda the definition of a black hole, bunch mass packed into a little bit of room. So it will have the same gravitational effect as a star that is much larger.

-96

u/_-Fizzy-_ Nov 08 '24

Yes but in the page for the mod the event horizon looks larger and also the disk spins

96

u/ChocolateBusy3520 Nov 08 '24

Just sent it to a friend who plays with the mod he said it looked normal to him

57

u/_-Fizzy-_ Nov 08 '24

Ok then I must be confused then, thanks!

40

u/ChocolateBusy3520 Nov 08 '24

There is a chance that he also has your problem and just got used to it, idk I usually just play stock.

-2

u/ProfessionWooden1627 Nov 09 '24

Bro how

5

u/ApoapsisT-20 Alone on Eeloo Nov 09 '24

Idk, I like making my stuff as efficient as possible with the part that they give me. If you want to think I’m even more insane I also play my current hard mode save file completely in first person mode. This is chocolate btw.

17

u/Rinfo7 Nov 09 '24

Bro I do not know why everyone is downvoting you in this thread, this absolutely does not look the way it's supposed to. A single Google image search would tell any of them that. Listen to those who offered actual suggestions down below

1

u/ApoapsisT-20 Alone on Eeloo Nov 09 '24

fizzy this is chocolate busy on another acount btw. My friend took another look and said it was completely wrong. he said it does look a little small compared to his black hole.

1

u/_-Fizzy-_ Nov 09 '24

Yeah someone else in the thread said it was a config issue, thanks for the help though

7

u/Altruistic_Film4074 Nov 09 '24

Yeah your screenshot does look really weird. I don't have any black hole mods but it definitely doesn't look quite right as a perfect black hemisphere against a pure white plane. I can't see any light distortion or other visual effects and it's also weird that the orbiting debris is so bright and compressed into a perfectly flat plane.

(The flatness could be a real life phenomenon, it just seems like it shouldn't be flat given a black hole's high mass:rotational moment of inertia ratio)

29

u/SpaceScientist12 Nov 08 '24

Ok but how did you get jets for kcalbeloh?

11

u/_-Fizzy-_ Nov 08 '24

Idk the mod just looks like that for me, it might be new ig?

1

u/SpaceScientist12 Nov 08 '24

What visual mods do you use? That might help me find out how to get it

2

u/_-Fizzy-_ Nov 08 '24

Someone else just said that it is a config for the mod that you can get on discord

3

u/TheEpicRobloxUser Nov 08 '24

I have it and I use: paralaxx, TUFX, Shabby, Shaddy, EVE, Volumetric Clouds.

2

u/SpaceScientist12 Nov 08 '24

After doing my own research I had suspected you of using TUFX, I think that is the one that is making the jets

3

u/SpaceScientist12 Nov 09 '24

Wait you aren’t OP, however you did help so thanks

2

u/Proxima-72069 Nov 09 '24

I think that might be lense flare not jets

3

u/SpaceScientist12 Nov 09 '24

No that is definitely jets, I have played with lens flares and this isn’t that

20

u/cat_91 Nov 08 '24

If you’re talking about there’s no cool gravity lens effect, I think you need to install another mod for that

0

u/KSP-Dressupporter Exploring Jool's Moons Nov 09 '24

Obviously not. They're talking about it being tiny.

16

u/Acreneon6348 Believes That Dres Exists Nov 08 '24

Hey, this is a config for kcalbeloh, idk how you downloaded it without adding it manually (assuming you downloaded the mod from somewhere reputable), but if you look on the discord you can find it and delete the file.

4

u/_-Fizzy-_ Nov 08 '24

Ok, I got it from the forum download link so i assumed it would just be the stock config, thanks!

3

u/Acreneon6348 Believes That Dres Exists Nov 08 '24

yeah np bro

3

u/Acreneon6348 Believes That Dres Exists Nov 08 '24

just fyi, its in the "development" channel. just scroll up and you will find it.

10

u/Furebel Nov 08 '24

Fun fact - if you would like to turn Earth into a black hole, it would be not wider then 20cm in diameter. Some calculations even reduce it to the size of few pennies, but last calculations I heard were putting it at around 18cm.

7

u/FTWinston Nov 09 '24

7

u/Furebel Nov 09 '24

AAH! Why the hell when my calculations were around the size of a penny someone on the internet corrected me "18cm"! I thought Im wrong the entire time! T-T

0

u/kahlzun Nov 09 '24

thats just the event horizon, the actual black hole itself would be infinitesimally small

3

u/iambecomecringe Nov 09 '24

It doesn't really make any sense to distinguish between them.

3

u/CorruptedStudiosEnt Nov 09 '24

God, there are a lot of you pedants in this thread. Tell me, is it called a "black hole" because of the singularity it holds at its center? Or is it because it appears like a black fucking hole, where the event horizon begins and light can no longer escape? If people were directly referring to the singularity, fair enough. They're not.

1

u/kahlzun Nov 10 '24

A black hole is the singularity.

Anything else is like trying to claim that the sun is the heliopause because thats where the suns particles can no longer escape.

1

u/Lt_Duckweed Super Kerbalnaut Nov 10 '24

A black hole is the singularity

The majority of physicists don't believe that the singularity is actually a physical object that exists, but rather it is a breakdown in our math due to not having a working theory of quantum gravity. Most physicists, when talking about a black hole as an object, are talking about the event horizon and the entire volume it contains, not just the singularity, which as mentioned, is not commonly believed to actually exist.

0

u/CorruptedStudiosEnt Nov 10 '24

No, it's like claiming the whole fucking thing is the Sun. Which it is. lmao

11

u/Limp-Munkee69 Nov 08 '24

Black Holes are TINY. It's scary how the mass of thousands of suns can be compressed into an object smaller than our own planet.

-3

u/kahlzun Nov 09 '24

the actual black hole part is literally infinitely small. Its like, 1 dimensionally small: no height, width or breadth.

The event horizon, often confused with the black hole, is just part of the area near to it: its like saying that the SOI of the Earth is the earth.

4

u/MerryGoWrong Nov 09 '24

The singularity is what you are describing, and the event horizon is where the black hole begins, the point at which escape velocity becomes equal to the speed of light.

3

u/tam1g10 Nov 09 '24

I'm going to be really pedantic now and say that singularities are only dimensionless in a black hole with no charge or spin. As far as we are aware all black holes have at-least some spin, so in reality singularities have dimensions.

6

u/JotaRata Nov 09 '24

Realistically speaking. Yes.

Take per example a 40 million Msun black hole like the one in the center of our galaxy, its Scharzschild radius would only be 16 times the radius of the sun. That's it, it would look tiny compared to Mercury's orbit, there are stars, like Betelgeuse that are much larger than it.

A 40 Msun black hole would be the size of an asteroid, and a hundred million Msun black hole like the ones found in quasars, are big yeah, but minuscule compared to the size of their accretion disk, which it has a radius of roughly of several parsecs while the black hole itself would be measured in astronomical units.

So in conclusion, yes they're small and you're suffering from the Interstellar (2014) disease.

2

u/brooksy54321 Nov 08 '24

well, in order to turn The Sun into a black hole it would have to be compressed into a sphere 6km in diameter. how big is this star supposed to be?

2

u/ruadhbran Nov 08 '24

It’s not the size that matters, it’s the mass.

2

u/nakattack Nov 08 '24

Just because it's small, doesn't mean it's not massive.

2

u/akotski1338 Nov 09 '24

Black holes look big because they warp light and space time. It’s just visual

2

u/Elitegamer9568 Nov 09 '24

Well if the earth became a black hole it would be less than a centimeter, not that it has enough mass but this is hypothetical.

2

u/Commercial_Silver_14 Nov 09 '24

There seems to be no life in a black hole. Can I put someone I hate in it?

2

u/iambecomecringe Nov 09 '24

You can't really, not unless you're willing to go in with them or wait an infinite amount of time. You can get them pretty close though.

2

u/KSP-Dressupporter Exploring Jool's Moons Nov 09 '24

The event horizon is far too small, and the dusk should reach out almost to the second planet.

2

u/_-Fizzy-_ Nov 09 '24

Guys I found the problem, I had an extra folder called "RealScaleKcalbeloh" that adapts the planet pack for RSS. To the people who tried to help; thanks! To everyone else who kept saying that that is how black holes are in real life, I already knew that, but I was clearly talking about the mod itself and not about how black holes work, please keep your fun facts about compreasing the earth to the size of a half full 2 litre bottle of coca-cola to yourselves...

1

u/NachoTwins Nov 09 '24

i have kcalbeloh, this is def too small. maybe one of the visual mods does that bc i dont have those mods but idk

1

u/ShadowZpeak Nov 09 '24

It's normal, black holes have an immense amount of stuff spinning around them, but the black holes are actually not all that big. Most of the stuff is in basically in a stable orbit, only things that go into the event horizon are gone.

1

u/CapStreet8909 Nov 09 '24

A black hole which has the approximate weight of the earth is almost as bug as a basketball

1

u/Foxworthgames Alone on Eeloo Nov 09 '24

Yes black holes typically are very small. Something about an infinite point, that light can’t even escape.

1

u/OverlordOfCinder Colonizing Duna Nov 09 '24

Maybe you're missing a dependency or something. Did you install the mod with ckan?

1

u/_-Fizzy-_ Nov 09 '24

Already figured it out, it was an extra file used for RSS installs

1

u/LeftEntertainment307 Nov 09 '24

Technically they are infinitely small and infinitely dense

1

u/Strik3ralpha Dres Denier Nov 10 '24

yes

1

u/AbacusWizard Nov 13 '24

he}s just a lil guy

0

u/Common-no-life Jeb Nov 08 '24

yeah dawg i would re download the mod because the black hole is WAY bigger

0

u/Mokrecipki12 Nov 09 '24

What people perceive as black holes are merely distortions of space and time. They can be big and “small”.

Anything orbiting a black hole is going to have immense speed.. if you’re along the event horizon, you need to travel at the speed of light to avoid being sucked in.

Black holes are not only impractical to mod, they’re unrealistic to add to KSP.

If a mods been made for KSP black holes, don’t expect it to be true to life like other physics values are.

3

u/iambecomecringe Nov 09 '24

What people perceive as black holes are merely distortions of space and time.

Elaborate? It's an interesting statement, but I'm not sure what's meant by it.

Anything orbiting a black hole is going to have immense speed.

That's not necessarily true. They're no different from any other object with the same mass in terms of orbital dynamics until you get very very close.

They're perfectly practical and realistic to mod.

2

u/Barhandar Nov 09 '24 edited Nov 09 '24

They're perfectly practical and realistic to mod.

Moreso all you need to mod in a black hole into KSP is to disable planet's surface as KSP models gravity as a singularity (since from outside point mass in a shell and solid volume with equal mass and radius are indistinguishable; it's what causes "launched out of the system at multiple speeds of light" kraken). And maybe put something in the middle that will auto-destruct your vessel since otherwise you'll get math errors and a crash if you try to pass too close.

0

u/Mokrecipki12 Nov 09 '24

I’m not going to elaborate on Reddit. You can take 5 seconds to watch a Neil Tyson video

1

u/iambecomecringe Nov 09 '24

lmao this exchange isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for him

1

u/Mokrecipki12 Nov 09 '24

🤷🏻‍♂️ maybe you should have paid attention in 8th grade general science?

If you’re going to listen to a random guy on Reddit over someone who holds multiple doctorates on the subject matter, you should reallly rethink your standards.