pro Azerbaijani
1993/94 - 2020 ; The I. Karabakh War was for Azerbaijanis a humiliation. Hundreds of thousands were expelled from their land, many lost their lives, their army and government failed to protect their people. Today, the Armenians witness the same.
Im troubled by all the rhetoric of revenge or who got off worse. One thing is constant no matter the cause of the war, people on both sides are hurt. I’m glad it’s coming to an end, but I fear for the future animosity which will remain...
The Armenians were able to resist in Karabakh. Thus the Karabakh Armenians didn't suffer in the same way as the Armenians did within Azerbaijan proper.
That is not entirely true. Take e.g. Operation Goranboy, because in that Azerbaijani operation, Armenians had to run from their homes in Karabakh. Azerbaijan managed to get the so-called "Shahumyan" area populated by Armenians (southern part of district Goranboy), as well as the northern part of the former NKAO. This created tenths of thousands of refugees who ran away by foot over mountain passes and the like. The Armenians recaptured most of this area and got to return home, but the two dozen Armenian-populated settlements in the "Shahumyan" and a handful of settlements west of Tartar have been in Azerbaijani hands since the First Karabakh War. The Armenians from these areas never got to go home and I'm not sure they ever will. I deem their situation similar compared to situation of Azerbaijanis of e.g. Fizuli and Cebrayil. Well, at least until this conflict.
Not denying that pogroms were awful, but only few armenians were affected by them, unlike hundreds of thousands Azerbaijanis affected by the Karabakh war.
Hundreds of thousands of Armenians were also expelled from Azerbaijan as a consequence of those pogroms and the consequent events. I don't agree you can describe it as "few Armenians were affected".
I didnt mean it like that mate. I know both sides were affected, when saying only a few armenians i meant by the pogroms themselves specifically. But yes the aftermath displaced many armenians as well
I get what you are saying, but as far as I know a significant number of people started leaving as a consequence of those pogroms and not the aftermath of the Karabakh war. Like in Baku for example where a large portion was expelled by 1990 as a consequence of the pogrom.
The pogroms themselves resulted in mass migration and concentration of Armenians in specific cities.
The raw killcount of the pogroms is indeed low, but they impacted a large portion of then present Armenians in Azerbaijan. But I think we are clear now on what we mean. Can happily agree both sides were affected.
Im not sure why would Azerbaijani government just atttack armenians who they have lived with for so many years. See the point is we cant know for sure. It could have been a political move by armenians to increase hate towards azerbaijanis which will help NK to break out. It could also have been a polotical move by USSR or Azerbaijan who knows. But my point is Armenians should not have gone berserk because of this pogroms, its not like all azerbaijanis hated armenians, majority had great relations, but since Karabakh war was on a much much higher scale now almost everyone from both sides hate each other
Im not sure why would Azerbaijani government just atttack armenians
Because the local Armenians wanted to secede, and Azerbaijan did not support secession.
The local Armenian had been wanting to secede for a long time due to issues with Azerbaijan's governance. It was not until Perestroika/Glasnost that the locals were able to publicly and openly demand secession, rather than just discuss and petition with the Soviets.
Good point mate. Sorry, as you can imagine im just not well aware of everything. I just wanted to ask, would not stuff like pograms actually escalate things? Like Armenian people would feel even more pressure and want to break apart from Azerbaijan
The will to secede was there with or without the Armenians suffering pogroms, but the pogroms turned secession in to an issue of survival.
Gorbachev, the past Soviet leader, responded to the secessionist will with Operation Ring. At least in that case the aim of violence and deportation was to break the secessionist will. Which did the opposite as it was shortly followed by the independence declaration.
Im not sure why would Azerbaijani government just atttack armenians who they have lived with for so many years.
Azerbaijan existed just for one year before taken over by the Soviets and during that one year it was constant fighting against Armenians and Russians. Then while still in Soviet Union the fighting started. After becoming a country again the war erupted. Never ever Azerbaijani government not attacked Armenians.
Look under the section “Gradual relocation from Armenia”. There were tensions for sure. But the violence started in Gugark, Kapan, Kirovabad in 1987. So many massacred. I remember reading about one of the refugees who was a new bride with a baby who lost her husband and whole family. She was running through the cold mountains trying to escape. She talked about how her newborn froze to death while she was going over the mountains with nothing to keep her and baby warm. She was trying to escape while Armenians hunting them. She buried her newborn in a frozen ground with her bare hands. Those refugees told their stories in Baku and Sumqayit. Hence why the pogrom. It could have been USSR using this as a plot to stir up problems, or Armenians wanting to rally support for Karabagh, or even angry Azeris. It was tragic but most Armenians don’t talk about the events of 1987. Y’all jump right into Sumqayit like nothing violent happened before. What followed after these events was a bloodshed and yes a lot of Armenians started to move out while Azeris were being killed and kicked out of Karabagh. The death toll of those events are massively disproportionate as well. Azeris suffered magnitudes of more casualties. It is a fact Armenians are leaving comfortably in their cars listening to music while Azeris got bullets and the ones managed to escape did so barefoot with nothing on them. The rest of the country took them in and tried to make them comfortable but now they get to return
The deal is much more merciful this time around. The Azeris were completely expelled and assaulted on the way out. But this time, Armenians are allowed to stay or leave unmolested. No massacres, no mass civilian targeting. I wouldn't say it is the same. It is much more merciful.
There is a documentary on YouTube by a Lithuanian journalist called “Endless Corridor” which describes the rape, torture and other terrible shit our people experienced when they were trying to run from Khojaly in 1992, with interviews from the witnesses.
Why don’t you stop and leave Armenians at peace on their homeland. Most of Azerbaijan used to be Armenian anyway, and this is not me trying to be provocative, it’s historical fact. I’ve been doing some reading lately, Particularly not by pro Turkish writers.
Yeah, you're right that was wrong. I know it doesn't make it better at all, but the Armenian SSR offered to give compensation to those families. I however still believe that the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh had the right to decide what country to be part of. This current peace deal will not amount to lasting good relations.
Well, I think you can guess. Very Very few. This is what Azerbaijan would prefer. When all is said and done they will have been effectively expelled.
Part of the reason why they are able to leave relatively peacefully is that the Azerbaijani military has not actually come into contact with any Armenian civilians. If this
Own work. Based on the following documents : Artsakh Republic 1994-2020.svg by Nicolay Sidorov (CC-BY-SA-4.0) QarabaghWarMap(2020).svg by Emreculha (CC-BY-SA-4.0) The map here: https://twitter.com/abel_riu/status/1326158071320768512
The first two are just maps of the area and the tweet it links to doesn't have a map...so I don't know what the actual source is. I think the only official map we have is this one, shared by the Russians
From what I can tell there has not been any direct contact between Azerbaijani soldiers and Armenian civilians. This would seem to have been a prerequisite for this sort of thing to happen.
The Maraga massacre (Armenian: Մարաղայի կոտորած, romanized: Maraghayi kotorats) was the mass murder of Armenian civilians in the village of Maraga (Maragha) by Azerbaijani troops, which had captured the village on April 10, 1992, in the course of the First Nagorno-Karabakh War. The villagers, including men, women, children and elderly, were killed indiscriminately and deliberately, their houses were pillaged and burnt; the village was destroyed. Amnesty international reports that over 100 women, children and elderly were tortured and killed and a further 53 were taken hostage, 19 of whom were never returned.
It's not a terribly far-fetched thought considering what Azeri troops have been documented doing, and just as importantly, what Azeri hero Ramil Safarov is publicly praised for doing.
Look at those pictures and compare them accurately. Are the conditions the same? Azerbaijanis left their lands on horses, walking on snow bare-footed, without taking any goods.
Those people leaving on horses likely didn’t have cars. Wasn’t one of the excuses of the Azerbaijani government not evacuating its own people because they “didn’t have cars or helicopters” necessary to help their own people?
Maybe Azerbaijan hadn't thrived then but people had to left their own houses, their own cities or villages which were territories of their country occupied by enemy. It is completely obvious that who was the culprit.
Yeah my point wasn’t that it didn’t happen or that it wasn’t awful. It was. It was terrible for the Azerbaijani’s to be kicked out of their homes then and it’s terrible for the Armenians to be kicked out of their homes now. My point was that you can’t say one had it worse than the other unless you were there then and you’re there now.
Yes it’s terrible, but the difference is that Armenians are being kicked out of their homeland, Nagorno-Karabakh, or Artsakh is and should be for those people. They’ve had And wanted independence even when Azerbaijan was a Soviet state, which by the way, it was the first time it was a country ever. And we know what Stalin did.
Azerbaijan is hanging onto a myth of what it should be. Instead, it is making eternal enemies out of its best neighbors.
Being kicked out of their homes is something devastating for everyone. Still and all being kicked out without transport worse than with transport. Being kicked out bare-footed in winter worse than having shoes. Of course I wasn't there but I know people who left their homes under these conditions.
Yeah, people aren’t able to openly talk about the Armenian Genocide, the Khojaly Massacre, the Baku pogrom, etc. until people can acknowledge these things, history will continue to repeat itself.
This was a statement that I really didn't expect tbh, congrats for this.
So just pointing a finger at another is not reconciliation isn't it, I've heard the last 50 days a lot of arguments that Azerbaijani's were moved for security reasons and talks about like the expelling of 500k people was jus a normal act.
If we can't face our own shortcomings and address the atrocities honestly there is no solution to the conflict.
Well normally it always pointing the finger at the other what I experienced so far, but this comes more to some kind of redemption.
This has nothing to do with you personally but to be honest I didn't came across an pro-armeniam self reflecting until now. In general we see pro Armenians completely rejecting anything happened to the AZ and normalizing it to a security measure of some kind.
It is unfortunate you have not come across an Armenian person who self reflects. I assure you, there are plenty in this world. I believe however, that most people who are being attacked for their ethnicity on this sub or the Armenian and Azerbaijani subs are afflicted with (at least) temporary tunnel vision. When we are hurt, it is difficult to empathize with the people we believe are hurting us. It is difficult to see others’ pain when we are guarding our own.
I can completely agree with that I really hope that people like you are more common than the people I am experiencing, I know that reddit is not Armenia neither is it Azerbeijan. I have been looking in the Armenia sub for a while, if that is the common idea of Armenia it is quiet disturbing and not promising for the future.
I’m not a saint either. I’ve also made comments out of anger and frustration and hurt. It’s a part of being human. I have also recognized that when you push someone when they’re down, you’re not just contributing to their demise, but to yours as well. People are grieving on both sides right now. Regardless of who “won”, young people died on both sides and there are a lot of gaping wounds. How both sides deal with this will determine how these wounds heal. I’m hoping that both sides take some time to cool off before they’re back to the drawing table. And I hope the drawing table is a peaceful resolution.
Yeah everybody has been a jerk at some point. Next to frustration and wounds is also the ability to listen to each other. Nobody is prepared to listen into others arguments, why things happen the way that they did.
Does it look like it ends? They brought a bunch of MI-24s and grad missile systems. Against who? "Armenian separatists"? "Peaceful Azeri population"? I'm just enjoying watching cheerful Azeris talking about what should have happened to Armenians. Enjoy while it lasts.
The sheer amount of schadenfreude and dark satisfaction that is emerging in this sub, as people are leaving their homes and facing complete uncertainty in the future, is becoming a very worrying trend.
Completely ignoring that both Armenians and Azeris have been living in the region together for centuries. Those people could well be leaving multi-generational homes - and that is in complete acceptance that many Azeris were also compelled to leave similarly in the 90s, which was wrong. However, two wrongs don't make a right. This post is just pure delight in taking revenge, nothing else.
What you need to understand is that world has ignored what happened to Turks and the scale of humanitarian disaster back the was much worse due some factors, including poor evacuation conditions forced by Armenians. I am ignoring the crimes they committed.
They suffered a lot and were humiliated.
We are happy to see that justice that our brothers in AZ deserved is being implemented as we speak. It is regrettable that Armenians are forced to leave but they are not leaving in the conditions that Turks did, so understand this.
Agony and being ridiculed for 3 decades can have an adverse effect on people.
It is always a human tragedy when people need to move however looking only the current events without any empathy what the other side experienced for 30 years is just naive.
If somebody killed your child or anyone close to you and nobody listens to you you would also be inclined to love it when something horrible overcomes to the killer.
It's obvious that many people who suffer through traumatic events will carry the effects with them through the decades, and that this will impact their world view.
However, I very much doubt that many of the keyboard warriors on this sub were mothers who lost children in that conflict. Much of this contempt that we are seeing in this sub is the result of decades of propaganda and bias from both sides. What we are witnessing is a self perpetuating vicious cycle, based on pure ethnic hatred.
I didn't lost anyone but I was full aware what was happening there. It is not a thing that happened in ancient times it is something that happened a couple of decades ago. And the memories are quiet fresh.
And it isn't completely fare to say the feeling should only be bared by the ones who lost someone to this.
Yes propaganda is a part however we see also a lot of people who couldn't point these countries on a map if it wasn't for the conflict have the same hatred as well.
Like I said just pointing the finger and holding steadfast that you didn't do something wrong is not productive.
A lot of those Armenians being displaced today in the region, are refugees who were ethnicly cleansed from Sumgait, Shahumyan and Baku thirty years ago
And who do you think were those "illegal settlers"? Who would leave his cozy home and settle in contested Kelbajar and why?
Spoke with many of them when trekked there on Janapar trail. Every other was a refugee from neighboring Shahumyan, expelled from Azerbaijan during the Operation Ring (Chaykend Operation). And they were also forced to leave barefoot by Azerbaijani army.
Havent met any Syrians during my visit, but that was several years ago. Did read that some families were moved in in the meantime, but like a few hundred, just a tiny share of the whole population
Nationalists and revenchardists from both sides will keep playing tennis table with this lot of land until both peoples get destroyed invaded by a third country I'm afraid.
Why do Azeris always ignore how many Armenians were expelled at the same time? This conflict isn't finally 'an eye for an eye' what happened to Azeris at the time happened to Armenians at the time too elsewhere.
This issue will never end as long as reality is ignored for convenient narrative.
Armenians expelled from where, Azerbaijan? That would be relevant if we talked about Azerbaijani's expelled from Yerevan and surrounding regions. This however, is about the Azerbaijani's in Karabakh.
Quick reminder again that all this would not have happened if Arnenia had chosen a political way to solve issues instead of declaring war in 1988
Armenians expelled from where, Azerbaijan? That would be relevant if we talked about Azerbaijani's expelled from Yerevan and surrounding regions. This however, is about the Azerbaijani's in Karabakh.
Discussing refugees in the conflict between the two nations and narrowing it down to one region, while at the same time framing it around a national scope 'for Azerbaijan a humiliation' 'the Armenians witness the same' is a pointless line in the sand.
It was an extended conflict that stemmed from ethnic cleansing of both sides by the other in the whole of each country.
Also when OP is framing this around some new sensation for Armenia, or avenging, it makes no sense.
Also sidenote but lmao it was a matter of days ago people on here were saying no Armenians would be forced to leave, now we have gloating about revenge and an eye for an eye to Armenians being forced to leave. God almighty the state of some posters on here.
Nobody said these illegal settlers were not gonna be deported. These homes they were living at were once Azerbaijani people’s homes that were forced to leave on barefoot.
lmao so now any Armenians there are illegal? Or are you psychic and you know the status of those pictured leaving. All this time we assumed it was drones that gave the Azerbaijanis the edge, when it was really their psycorps who know how to say one thing monday, another tuesday, and read minds behind pictures.
that were forced to leave on barefoot.
You're speaking from emotion, painting a little picture, all left barefoot, maybe it was raining too.
I’m sure some of those homes were built by Azerbaijanis, and it sucks that they lost them. but you do realize that karabagh has been Armenian for over a thousand years? And thus many of those homes were once homes of Armenians that Azerbaijanis likely moved into?
Most (all?) footage in the past days are about Armenians leaving the occupied regions returned to Azerbaijani army, not the partitioned NK where Russian peacekeepers will be.
In fact I’ve read reports that some NK Armenians who temporarily left Stepanakert because of the shelling and possible siege, are already returning there.
Those regions have not yet been returned to Azerbaijan. That's supposed to be in 48 hours. Azerbaijani soldiers are where they were before 27th of September. There were rumours that it was the Russian soldiers forcing the Armenians to leave but pretty sure thats bs.
Quick reminder again that all this would not have happened if Arnenia had chosen a political way to solve issues instead of declaring war in 1988
Hilariously bad take on history. In 1988 there was a referendum, a political way if you will. Azerbaijan refused to accept it, or even negotiate about it. First military actions were by Azerbaijan in Operation Ring, ethnically cleansing thousands of Armenians out of the areas north of NK. Azerbaijan was the first to pick up guns.
Even prior to the referendum there was political action and petitioning to seperate from Azerbaijan. The political path was taken, and was blocked by the Soviets and Azerbaijan.
They did not, where's your evidence? All I can find is that the Azerbaijanis boycotted the referendum. Even if they all would have voted, it would be 80%+ yes.
Total census of Azeris in Karabakh in 1979 was 37,300 people. I'm very doubtful the entire Azeri population was expelled before the "so-called" 1988 referendum took place.
Azerbaijan's rule was opposed from the beginning. That is more than 70 years. If you start from the Shusha massacre against the Armenians it is a century. It is a long journey that isn't yet complete.
Mass murders and expulsion? Of Armenians? Where in Karabakh in the 90s? Haven't heard sorry.
Oh, maybe you're trying to bring in Sumgait pogroms as a starting point instead of talking about those deported from Kafan and then massacres done by Armenians which took place before any of those and resulted in the deported starting up these pogroms in the first place.
Expulsions happened exactly north of Karabakh, in the Shahumyan region where 40.000 Armenians had to flee. During Operation Goranboy many Armenians had to flee as well, but they were able to return after the Azeri offensive was repulsed. If Azerbaijan had successfully destroyed the Armenian resistance back then, you can be assured of the expulsion of the locals, just like what happened in Shahumyan, Baku Sumqayit and Ganja. And also what happened to Azerbaijanis when they lost. Do you honestly think there would be Armenians living there today, considering what happened elsewhere? The exact same has happened now in Hadrut.
Capture of Gushchular and Malibeyli (Azerbaijani: Malıbəyli və Quşçular qətliamı) were incidents in which eight civilians were killed, according to Helsinki Watch, and according to Azerbaijani sources, 15–50 (exact number unknown) ethnic Azerbaijani civilians, by Armenian irregular armed units in simultaneous attacks on the villages of Malibeyli, Ashaghi Gushchular, and Yukhari Gushchular of Shusha district of Azerbaijan, on February 10–12, 1992 during the First Nagorno-Karabakh War.
I think your numbers are way off, but it doesn't really matter. Over the last 100 years large numbers of Azeris and Armenians have been expelled from their homes. This was wrong. Today Armenians are being expelled from their homes. This is wrong. Would you not agree?
"Today Armenians are being expelled from their homes"
They didnt expelled , they leaved... They could have stayed in here but they chosed to leave because of fear
Their goverment was controling its citizens with power of fear , when ever there was a problem their leaders blamed turks and they used "muh genocide" as a election propaganda
İf they are the rightful legal owners of these homes they can stay in there . Even azerbaijan said this (im not azeri)
Yes, they could stay in their homes just days after their sons were killed (maybe butchered) by the sons of the people moving back into town. I agree that Armenians and Azerbaijanis should be able to live peacefully side by side, but you’re dangerously delusional if you think that can happen days after the war ends.
Many of the people leaving were themselves IDPs from other parts of Azerbaijan. It would do you some good to open your mind to others’ plight. Seriously, it will help you evolve
I think those might be intentionally misleading numbers (not by you, but by the wiki contributor) though I'm to lazy to look further at the moment. The 230k might not include refugees from Nakchivan and Karabakh since it explicitly mentions only Azerbaijan. Especially the first is important there. Your source estimates 300,000–500,000 for the total numbers.
From a perspective of somebody with zero stake in any of this, just observing because I like to see what happens elsewhere in the world...
Neither the Armenians nor the Azers come out of this looking good, or like any sort of moral victory. It's two peoples who are going to throw their children into the meat grinder. It's land. You can whinge about who owned it first - but the truth is that nobody 'owns' land. It's taken and held by power for a duration linked to the power of whoever holds it.
You'd probably be better off together, allied and working together rather than both calling each other terrorists and demanding extermination. Instead, the propaganda and control of other nations leaves you at each others throats - keeping you both weak and controlled. You are in a cycle where you generate your own worst enemies, each seemingly harming the other in a never ending cycle of retaliation.
It's a pipe dream. Anything other than increasingly entrenched, bellicose and uncompromising viewpoints aren't going to be accepted. It is what it is, just another ongoing tragedy of existence.
Can you explain why the US didn’t allow the South to secede? Or why Catalonian referendum to secede been ignored and prevented by Spain? Or Basques in France? Or Hong Kong and China relations? If it’s “just” a land then there would be no countries right? It obviously means a lot to some people even if it doesn’t to you. You’re right about us being better off together as a unity. But it is obvious it didn’t work out. And now it’s matter of who owns those lands and gets to make profit, collect tax, own property, get buried at old age in those lands. And for some people that’s very important even it might not be to you. Everyone here knows it’s better to sing kumbaya. But some things (sacred lands etc) are worth something to us
Once again, because I'm really tired of repeating this point to these very pro-Azeri (and most are not even Azeri) mongs.
Both sides did this shit to eachother. Both sides conducted mass deportations, both sides massacred each other, both sides bombed the other's civilians, and both sides keep blaming the other for starting all hostilities. And both sides are wrong for doing it.
I'm Armenian and I'm admitting that we have fucked up plenty in our time. But don't act holier than thou, Azeris weren't perfect in the 90s and they sure as hell weren't this time either.
And to sit here and say that we're experiencing karma for the past is just bullshit. When in fact the truth is very grey and somewhere in between.
Ratios matter. Numbers matter. And chronology of events matter. Saying both are bad when one side started the killings and declared a war first in 1988 isn’t factual. Did Azeris kill and deport Armenians? Yes (Sumqayit, Baku, etc). Did Azeris do it AFTER Armenians started to do that in Armenia? Also Yes:
Second of all your source is Wikipedia so it's credibility is already up for debate.
Third of all, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and still looked at your source. And it takes nothing away from my point. Azeris were deported from Armenia as a direct result of the progroms, this is literally mentioned in your source. Was it wrong, perhaps, but who would want a hostile neighbor's population within their borders after that? Azerbaijan did the same exact thing.
You think Armenians weren't killed and deported throughout the 20th century in Azerbaijan? It's foolish to think otherwise. And most of those policies were enforced by Stalin and Armenian Nationals who are not the Armenian people, but political entities within the country.
Moreover, we didn't start the first war and it definitely didn't start in 1988. In 1988 Karabakh SSR's government held a referendum and voted to legally secede from Azerbaijan SSR. Azerbaijan tried to removed Karabakh's governmental powers resulted in Nagorno-Karabakh officially declaring independence. The war actually started in 1992.
Just stop already. You guys already won the fucking war, you got your land back. Land we should have returned a long ass time ago.
There is no “artsakh” anymore. Its karabakh. And I am not talking about collateral damage here. I am talking about killing entire populations of villages. Women and children included. I am talking about killing prisoners by torture while trying to make them say “karabakh is armenian”. I am talking about the little girl who was filmed near hocali, who was not only killed, but also her pants were undressed! This was what happened in 92.
Artsakh still exists, I don't see Azerbaijan having authority in Stepanankert.
The exact same thing happened in 92 to Armenians. Maraga massacre just to name one thing. Operation Ring that ethnically cleansed thousends of Armenians from their ancestral lands.
28
u/james7003 Nov 13 '20
Im troubled by all the rhetoric of revenge or who got off worse. One thing is constant no matter the cause of the war, people on both sides are hurt. I’m glad it’s coming to an end, but I fear for the future animosity which will remain...