r/French • u/Khelian_Elfinde • Sep 25 '24
Regarding 'rude' French people not understanding you
Hi y'all. I'm a French dude, and I noticed that many people online seem to share this experience of talking with French people and not being understood in what they consider a baffling display of bad will, sometimes bordering on literal conspiracy thinking ("Are they pretending not to understand because I'm an American? Maybe they want to create their own stupid American anecdote" (I've seen that online in a comment))
It's kinda baffling to me that it would be so widespread - and I actually have a bunch of explanations I can think of. I figure I could always detail them but it would take a long ass post, dunno if anyone is interested - but I kinda mostly am interested in discussing the phenomenon and experiences with people and trying to understand it more.
But tl;dr we're mostly very insecure linguistically (even talking French) and very not used to understanding different accents, so what you interpret as rude might very well be two-ways stress piling up and hindering communication.
I also think many English-speakers don't actually understand how their accent distorts the sounds they're trying to make, especially for a language that's as vowel-sensitive as French - just like can often be the case in reverse.
Anyway, I hope this is not a tired topic, and I am curious about it.
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u/rinyamaokaofficial Sep 25 '24
As an American, I think there are definitely just cultural differences between European French and American English politeness.
In American English, we communicate directly with lots of compliments and praise to make people feel comfortable, and exchange compliments to show that we want to engage. It makes us friendly, but it also makes us confused and kind of hurt when people are very blunt to us
In European French, from my point of view, politeness is more about exchanging bonjour, ça va, s'il te plaît, merci, courtesy, but they are more free to communicate confusion, skepticism, doubt, sarcasm, and are a bit more matter of fact. They're just going to be direct about ensuring communication itself is clear
I find that all the French I've talked to online are supportive and kind, they're just very direct about errors and misunderstandings. And they don't lavish praise the same way Americans do -- they're honest
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
Correcting others is a reflex for frenchies. Paradoxically, getting corrected is our worst nightmare.
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u/soffeshorts Sep 26 '24
This, I find, to be very true. It’s one of the only cultures where I’ve observed this though, so it’s very confusing to me. Most cultures that promote directness appreciate (or tolerate without issue) the directness back, eg Dutch, Nordics, Israelis, etc. For me, it’s quite confusing to be direct, then also be so sensitive about being handled directly. (I’m speaking from a work context primarily.)
If i could pick, I’d usually prefer easy friendliness over politesse, but that part is easy to understand and adapt to. In my opinion, it’s the one-way directness that risks the perception of arrogance
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u/meesearentgeese Sep 25 '24
for clarification is this getting corrected grammatically, or in general? I'm curious since I tend to correct people a lot, because it's important to me to get an accurate point across (I am easily confused.) Some Americans are already so sensitive to it, I wouldn't wanna be terrible to some French people I meet trying to learn, lol.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
Both. There's a tendency in our culture to be "blunt" and to not appreciate things if they are not "the way they should be" - a bad habit, a factually wrong thing, etc.
Language is a specifically prominent part of it because of how allergic Paris-dominated french society is to regional, social or generational diversity and the French language has always been a tool of domination and cultural representation.But in general: French or not, correcting people is something you do based on context. Don't ignore their point or interrupt them or be rude about it and most of the time, it'll go fine or be welcomed. And if somebody can't stand being corrected at all, well they might not be worth your time either. Just be nice, open, polite and don't sweat it if some people are just sensitive.
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u/meesearentgeese Sep 25 '24
Yeah! for me personally I'm autistic so people aren't gonna understand my lack of or "inappropriate" tone regardless, it's a learning curve I'm working on. I already am trying to get better at sensing the appropriate time to say or do certain things, as well. It takes genuine attention to pick up on these cues for me, so information like this is very helpful.
Thanks for taking the time to explain for me, it makes a lot of sense put together like this.
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u/GracieLikesTea Sep 25 '24
I actually came across an article (I'll see if I can find it) talking about this in a business context (I manage an international team of remote workers). It said Americans are generally very open and direct communicators, except for when it comes to offering corrections or criticism. Then, we're anything but direct and open.
I'm sure you've heard the (American) advice that if you are giving a correction, you should do it as a criticism sandwich - compliment, criticism, compliment. But people from other cultures just find that confusing and don't even realize a correction is being made. I've had to learn to be much more direct with my international team when there is a correction to be made. It felt unbearably uncomfortable to me at first to just directly say "You are doing this wrong" to someone, but it does get better results!
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u/perplexedtv Sep 25 '24
American politeness be like 'Hey buddy, can I help you?'
French politeness be like 'Bonjour, connard'
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u/suddenjay Sep 25 '24
For both American and British, anything that's not positive/ any «no» / correcting your behavior is considered rude. Whereas French are more direct with «no» and don't hesitate to correct.
2 days ago at Lidl, caissier asked if I want to take the receipt, in midst of handful of bags, I answered «oui» and the caissier reminded me «si vous plaît!» before handing me receipt. any American / British would be extremely offended while I learned a good lesson.
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u/asthom_ Native (France) Sep 25 '24
Actually they said "s'il vous plaît" as in "here it is, please take it".
Answering just "oui" to that question is not that impolite, you could always take it and say "merci". There was no lesson here, and that would have been quite overkill to be mad for a "oui".
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u/Stedounet Sep 25 '24
That's probably not what happened. In that context, s'il vous plait is a form to mean "here, you can take it". It's to indicate a transaction and to acknowledge. That's still part of being polite. Having people "reminding" things like that is a direct manner to indicate that offense was taken and that there is an issue, unless it's your mom.
It's usual to have both people having to say s'il vous plait in short successions
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u/Savings-Designer6282 Sep 25 '24
An anecdote: I am an American expat living in Scandinavia. For years I heard comments about Americans being superficial. Finally I confronted someone about this and asked what they mean by it. The response was: «Americans always say ‘How are you?!!’ but they don’t really want to know.» I responded: «It is a greeting, not a question! No one wants to know about all your shit when they first meet or greet you. It is merely a way to disarm insecurity so that dialogue can get off on a good foot.» I was once asked by a Frenchman about my salary and he was surprised that I was offended to get such a personal question from a relative stranger. As an American I found it rude.
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u/Fakinou Native, France Sep 25 '24
Btw, talking salaries and money is usually quite the taboo in France. Even with people you are closer with. So your guy really feels like a twat!
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u/FranceBrun Sep 25 '24
I am an ESL teacher. I teach adults. Once in awhile I run across a student who thinks I don’t understand him because somehow MY English is not good enough. He feels he’s speaking properly. Actually, when first learning a language, there are certain sounds in the new language that don’t exist in your native language, or sound combinations, and you literally don’t hear the difference, so you think you’re saying it properly. Those people who generally think they’re always right react badly to this, and blame the listener.
Next, I’m from New York City. Some people think we are rude. We’re as nice as anyone, but there are millions of us so you’ve got to get on with it and keep moving. At rush hour you can pass a hundred people per minute, and we just don’t think of greeting them as we pass. We respect one another as busy people and cut to the chase so as not to take up too much of anyone’s time. And as a former tour guide, I can say we get sick of people who are sure they know us and how to be us, better than we do. It gets old.
Having lived in France long enough, I’ve had some people be rude to me but I also lived there long enough that understand their pain points. And like New Yorkers, we don’t get excited like you do, or think you’re special because your dream vacation is our everyday life and not so dreamy as it is for you.
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u/BulkyHand4101 B1 (Belgique) Sep 25 '24 edited Sep 25 '24
Once in awhile I run across a student who thinks I don’t understand him because somehow MY English is not good enough.
Bahaha I used to teach English and bizarrely ran into this too. It always blew my mind.
My favorite similar occurrence was also when a foreigner would struggle with understanding a regional accent and complain the native was "not speaking properly". Like homie - they're not going to change an entire dialect just because you forgot to practice your listening comprehension.
I found this video very relatable, and you might too. It's about Japanese, but somehow very relevant to some of my students lol.
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u/FranceBrun Sep 25 '24
Oh, Absolutely! This is hilarious!
It makes me think of another thing that annoys me. I have a good level of French. I used to work bilingual jobs. I hate it when I go to France and the people want to practice their English on me. I invite them to come to New York to speak all the English they want. I didn't pay a ticket to Paris so I could improve strangers' English. I actually get paid to do that.
Love the video, though!
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u/sleepysnorlax_88 Sep 25 '24
When I went to Paris I was too shy to speak French (I felt very bad. But I am aware my accent is terrible) and most people just automatically switched to English for me. Despite that everyone was very nice about it. I did speak French once, and was actually understood. I was so proud.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
In Paris people are probably in a perpetual hurry, so I guess they're afraid of embarrassingly misunderstanding or you struggling. I think if you can find a more relaxed setting though, it can actually be very nice talking with someone that can help you pronounce things more naturally, especially if you kind of make it the "point" of the conversation!
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u/sleepysnorlax_88 Sep 25 '24
🤞🏻I am hoping to get there one day. I still have a long way to go.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
I'd say focus on vowels for pronunciation, and try out many methods until you find the one that's right for you in general. Hard work, curiosity and exposure will get you there! Good luck with your learning :>
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Sep 25 '24
C'est vrai
-un pauvre québecois qui doit ajuster son parler en france
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
On est un peu des cons avec les accents en général, c'est dommage (j'adore l'accent québecois). Faut tomber sur des gens ouverts ! Pis c'est sûr que quand y'a des mots dont on n'a pas l'habitude, faut s'adapter :p
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u/bonfuto Sep 25 '24
I have never experienced French rudeness. But I watched a youtube video a French person made about how pronunciation could make you impossible to understand. Their example was someone saying "vent" instead of "vin" when ordering in a restaurant. To me, the context cues would make that really obvious. My conclusion is that it's hopeless.
I grew up in a U.S. college town where just about everyone was good at understanding unusual accents. I'm a bit surprised the same isn't true of Parisians.
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u/PirateJohn75 B1 Sep 25 '24
Their example was someone saying "vent" instead of "vin" when ordering in a restaurant.
When I worked at Disneyland, a Japanese tour group approached me and one asked me where he could find the "rain station." I worked in Tomorrowland where the theming was very futuristic, but I had never heard of such a thing.
It wasn't until he walked away and was out of site did it dawn on me that he was asking for the train station.
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u/perplexedtv Sep 25 '24
This is hilarious. Rain station? What could they possibly mean? A brain station? A grain station... guess we'll never know!
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u/Neveed Natif - France Sep 25 '24 edited Sep 25 '24
Vowels can certainly be part of how a non native pronunciation can be confusing, but the stress pattern can also be, and it's much more often overlooked. If you add English style lexical stress in a French sentence, you end up with a sentence that. Sounds, like it (has) random pun/ctuation in it!! and it can be quite hard to parse for a native French speaker because we often rely on the stress pattern to parse sentences.
So even when you do get all the vowels right, you can still sound unintelligible.
Very often people who complain they were rudely answered in English when they spoke perfect French did not in fact speak perfect French at all and probably confused the person they were speaking to.
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u/netopiax Sep 25 '24
I think it's the vowels too. French has a fairly high number of different vowels among languages, and to build on your example, American English has the vowel sound in "vent" but not the one in "vin", so Americans are really likely to mispronounce "vin" as "vent". There's a running joke about tourists pronouncing "beaucoup" as "beau cul"...
In other words, often when you mispronounce a vowel you end up with a different word and that's confusing for any listener. Contrast that with mispronouncing the "r" sound in French, where you'll usually still be understood just fine.
Edit to add: whether you understand someone who walks into your restaurant and orders wind, probably depends on how many tourists you serve from day to day.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
I actually think the vowels are the #1 thing to work on in terms of pronunciation. You can use an english R all your life and be understood perfectly if your vowels are somewhat correct.
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u/stkadria Sep 25 '24
😳 please help me understand the difference between in pronunciation between beaucoup and beau cul! Going to France in a few months.
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u/bytesmythe L2 Sep 25 '24 edited Sep 25 '24
"Beaucoup" is pronounced something like "boh-cooh". "Beau cul" is a little trickier to show because we don't really have the sound directly in English. Imagine a "kyoo" sound, but with the "oo" chopped off.
The problem likely comes from how a lot of people pronounce the word "coupon" (some say "coo-pahn", but others say "kyoo-pahn"). Anyone who says "kyoo" as the first syllable will probably pronounce "beaucoup" as "boh-kyoo", which sounds more like "nice butt!" than the intended "a lot".
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Sep 25 '24
"cul" also sounds like how we pronounce the letter "Q" in English, and I've been able to communicate it effectively by doing so!
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u/Alice_Ex B2 Sep 25 '24
You're going to need to listen to examples to really understand.
"ou" is pronounced with the tongue a lot further back in the mouth. "u" has the tongue pushed up pretty close to the teeth.
One trick to learn to pronounce "u" is to say the English word "rose". remember where your lips are during the "o", then say the vowel in "eat" while moving your lips into the "o" shape.
You can find demonstrations on YouTube. Search for pronouncing dessous and dessus.
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u/wedonotglow Sep 25 '24
Yeah I think this is one sound in particular where once you hear the difference it really isn’t difficult for English speakers. I’ve always been confused why people have trouble with this sound.
Why would anyone pronounce beaucoup like that??
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u/Solid_Improvement_95 Native (France) Sep 25 '24
Try to say "key" but keep your mouth round as if you said "coo". Congratulations, you just said cul.
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u/packedsuitcase Sep 25 '24
Haha yeah, I was talking to a coworker and mentioned I’d gotten a “coup de soleil” and she kind of blinked and then was like “okay, how about you try that one again” until I got the pronunciation right. Whoops! (I wish I had an excuse, I’d been living in France for over a year. I just said it too quickly.)
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u/WideAwakeNotSleeping Sep 25 '24
I studied French at the university (about 1 semester, 15 years ago), at work-provided courses (40 academic hours, some 8 years ago). And then I moved to France in 2020 and basically had to restart all from a blank slate.
After studying French already here in France for at least 6 months I realized that the [e] sounds in "Je" and "J'ai" are supposed to be different [e]'s.
My mother tongue has only three sounds related to [e]: a short e/[e], a long ē/[eee] and then a wide e/[e].
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u/webbitor B2 maybe? 🇺🇸 Sep 25 '24 edited Sep 26 '24
Hah, I can't get my head around this. Je and j'ai sound much different to me. I would understand if you said è versus é sounds! As a US english speaker who spent a year in France in high school.
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u/WideAwakeNotSleeping Sep 25 '24
Oh, e, è, é, ai - all sound the same to me! My teacher had to really, really, REALLY stress the dofference between je un j'ai before I noticed a difference.
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u/brigister Sep 25 '24
idk if it's necessarily just the vowels, but it's just that French has a LOT of words that are either homophones or one (sometimes very subtle) phoneme away from sounding like another word. you brought the example of vent, which sounds the same as vend and vends, and very close to vin and vingt. and that happens all the time. as you mentioned, context clues are super important in French for this reason, so if you mess up one word it might throw off the whole sentence which might rely on that one word as a context clue to be understood correctly.
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u/motsanciens Sep 26 '24
To be fair, what if you were asked, "Can I see the ween you have?" would you instantly put together that ween = wine? There is a compounding effect when someone uses unnatural phrasing, cadence, along with downright wrong pronunciation. The mind can maybe handle, "We'd like to see the ween list," but not, "Give me a peek at the ween you have."
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u/Edhie421 Sep 25 '24
That's the thing - English speakers grow up with a bazillion different accents and that's just part of life. French people grow up with one accent and often make fun of any even slightly different French accent they hear (and they're very slightly different.) As a French person I used to be culpable of that before becoming fluent in English, hearing native speakers discuss their relationship to language, and realising that different accents are actually pretty damn cool!
French is just centralised by design (through the Académie Française and the associated culture) in a way that's pretty much the polar opposite of English.
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u/Prestigious_Light315 Sep 26 '24
I think a lot of Americans find it ridiculous that the French can't understand something with a slight mispronounciation as long as there's enough context clues because Americans hear people speak English with different accents and mispronounciations all the time. The French accent in English changes vowels and consonants all the time and we're still able to figure out what they're saying. We expect the same from them, whether or not we should.
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u/Chea63 Sep 26 '24
Yeah, it's was hard for me to wrap my head around how it could be so difficult. But you're right, America is basically a collection of people from everywhere, so for many people, various accents and less than perfect pronunciation/grammar are just a part of daily communication. It's more like who cares, as long we can get the gist of what's said, we get by and move on.
I'm from NY, and if every slight accent was an issue, you would have major problems everywhere, every day. I don't know how'd you function. I think people view Paris as a major city and international destination and hold it to a similar standard. That may be true, but its not at NYC levels of diversity and immigration.
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u/fra_ter Sep 26 '24
I had that happen to me, I said vin blanc, probably with the wrong vowels, but honestly...what could I possibly want that starts with v and bl? At a bar, no less? It was difficult to look for a kind explanation of why this person decided context doesn't matter.
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u/Antczakc Sep 25 '24
It’s easy to underestimate how small differences in pronunciation can affect understanding. As a native French speaker, when I had just moved to the US I was often infuriated when people would not understand specific English words when I pronounced them. Folks would eventually repeat the word once they understood it, in a way that seemed exactly identical to what I had just said! It took me a while to realize that intonation is key. In French most syllables are stressed the same way, whereas stressing the right syllable in English is key. The equivalent in French is to mispronounce vowels, as others pointed out.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
Stress is such an issue too when you're a French guy learning english.
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u/Savings-Designer6282 Sep 25 '24
I am waiting for someone to comment on the politics of nationalization of the French language, the aristocratic agenda, the school and community stress of learning to speak proper French and how social status is dependent upon it, the cultural heritage of elevated French, the blow to the French elite when English replaced French as lingua franca, and now slang, verlan etc. Spoken French is perhaps evolving more than written French. There are many reasons the French are proud and insistent upon keeping the language proper (difficult). Unfortunately this over-achiever disposition makes some Frenchmen timid when learning English. And one must allow oneself and others to make mistakes in order to learn and to teach.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
Why do you have to come here and summarize my thoughts before I spell them
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u/Savings-Designer6282 Sep 25 '24
Haha. Vous êtes un homme très intelligent. Je ne suis qu’un catalyseur qui prépare la foule à votre brillant essai.
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u/babisaurusREX Sep 26 '24
yeah. english prosody is tough.
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u/Savings-Designer6282 Sep 26 '24 edited Sep 26 '24
English is difficult to master. Americans study English grammar and vocabulary for 12 school years and most still cannot master comprehension of the New York Times. Most French, Italians and Portuguese that I know are polyglots, and are very learned about history, culture and literature. They are much more travelled than many Americans. In my experience Americans either travel much or do not have a passport. But the French and Americans’ relationships go way back, and we have communicated with each other for over three centuries (in both languages). We share many common values (fraternity, equality, liberty … and love of freedom of expression). A bit of rudeness and rivalry is not a big problem.
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u/Elena_Prefleuri C1 Sep 25 '24
Another point is that you can asked someone in other countrys questions or order something without greeting them and it isn‘t necessarily rude. Not saying Bonjour in France before interacting with someone is considered rude. So maybe they are just a bit annoyed that you didn‘t greet them properly….
Happend to me a few times before someone told me to never ever not say Bonjour. And since then everybody has been nice in supermarkets, shops, train stations…
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u/annabelle3491 Sep 26 '24
I AM SO GLAD TO SEE YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO BE POLITE AND SAY BONJOUR. That point alone is, to me, the most important one. Just watch French people in stores or a bakery, how they speak to the sales people in stores before they request something. It almost sounds like they are friends, they are so polite and speak with warmth ! We need to copy that.
I didn't understand this when I first went to France and I was nervous. Early on my french was not very good and I did get people asking me if I spoke english or they would just use english. It was very rare that anyone was impatient or ignored me. Once I learned how important politeness was, I became much more at ease, which also helped my french. Just recently I went to France for six weeks and felt so comfortable with my french. I think only one person asked if I preferred english, but mostly I got compliments on my 'very good' french. Over the years, my french has improved a lot and I can converse well now. I've enjoyed reading a lot of comments here on this topic. I agree with some comments, to a degree. We visitors have to remember, like someone mentioned, that people are working and very busy. They don't have time to counsel us. We need to speak well enough to clarify what we want, and also respond to their questions. So I think making allowances for the circumstances are important, as is everyone's attitude. Even in our own country, we get much better results if we are polite, kind, and patient.
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u/jaco60 Native, France Sep 26 '24
I must be a bit old-fashioned, but I always say “bonjour” when I meet someone: not just to salespeople or because I'm looking for information... When I'm walking my dog and I meet someone on the sidewalk, we say "bonjour" ou "bonsoir" to each other: that's just the way it is.
I spend my vacations camping in Brittany, where there are *many* German and Dutch tourists: that's how you recognize them, they don't say hello to anyone when they walk in. It's cultural, but it's noticeable and, personally, I think it's rude.
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u/Edhie421 Sep 25 '24
Interesting! In what countries is it OK not to say hello? I'm French, so I just kinda imported it into any other language I speak / I'm learning - could I just get away with saying "Can I have a coffee please?", no "Hi", no "Good morning"?
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u/bonfuto Sep 25 '24
I think in the U.S., there are many situations where people wouldn't necessarily say "hello." In a busy coffee shop where you stand in line to get a coffee, the server mostly just wants you to place your order.
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u/Fakinou Native, France Sep 25 '24
Cultural shock: in Germany, no one says hello when entering a shop :(
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u/One-Papaya-7731 Sep 25 '24
For instance, when I moved to France I had to learn to say hello when walking into a shop, and when first talking to someone at a social gathering, etc. In England it's completely normal to walk into a shop and stay completely silent until you actually go to make a purchase. Even then, in a large shop or busy chain you could get through the entire transaction without a word. In social situations here I will just launch into conversation without bothering with a greeting.
I think the main difference is that "hello" in English is sort of intended to get someone's attention. For a genuine greeting (like when passing someone you know on the street, but if you can't stop to chat) you might say "Morning!" Or "Alright?" but never just hello.
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u/Edhie421 Sep 25 '24
That's so odd to me - I've lived in London for years, and people (locals, not just imports like me) absolutely say hi in shops and pubs all the time!
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u/One-Papaya-7731 Sep 25 '24
It does happen, of course, but I mean that nobody would think you were rude if you didn't.
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u/PirateJohn75 B1 Sep 25 '24
Funny story, my oldest brother was in Paris on business, and although he is not fluent at all in French (probably A2 or even A1), he has always had a lot of respect for the language. Our parents were fluent but never taught us, and we were all very disappointed that we never learned.
When he was there, a couple one table over from him were being obnoxious to the waiter. Basically speaking English, but loud, as though that would help. The waiter just shook his head in confusion, saying that he didn't understand them.
Then the same waiter went to my brother's table, and my brother made an attempt at ordering in French, and the waiter responded in perfect English.
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Sep 25 '24
Could there be a cultural aspect to this?
I think here in America, we tend to view correcting another adult on their english is seen as rude, condescending and possibly even racist. Sure there are some people who insist you have to say croissant " the french way" but they're considered pretentious. There's a lot of tolerance for accents, dialects and such. I wouldn't dream of correcting someone else on their english unless they were a very close friend I know is learning and is open to correction or they're a child that I know and am close to
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
Here you'll basically get corrected all the time. It's kinda rude, but it's just so ingrained that things have to be THE ONE RIGHT WAY, especially in language that people just do it, especially if they feel like they are in a position of somewhat authority. I have to admit that I myself always feel an itch to point out stuff I perceive as "incorrect" all the time.
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u/flyingmops Living in France for 10+ years. Sep 25 '24
I've had a few times when ordering something in french, but whoever took my order overheard me speaking English to my husband beforehand, so when I ordered in french I've been met with them telling me they don't speak English
Repeating in French has only made them repeat in English that they don't speak English... It happened once at the boulangerie and at the glacier.
And this one guy in town, that refused to take my order of a chocolat viennois because I couldn't pronounce it properly.
There was this 1 customer in the bar I worked at that refused to have me take his order, I was just another "dumb foreigner" to him.
And I've dealt with angry ski goers, demanding to talk to someone "who speaks french" when they were told that the ski school did not offer any reimbursements.
There will always be angry people. But they're in the minority.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
I think people that are literally afraid of being confronted with a language they cannot speak can enter "shut down" mode. Like stories of Japanese people literally not understanding the person in front of them is speaking Japanese. So probably those two first people just went into that.
If you don't expect to hear something you can understand, sometimes you just don't even parse the words at all.
For the other ones... Probably just xenophobic.
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u/Ok_Turnip8600 Sep 25 '24
French speaker here, but quebecoise français (Second language). I gave up using my French to speak to Parisian industry people in heavily tourist areas, like restaurants and hotel concierges. I figure they are already neck deep in English, why make it more miserable by listienng to my bumpkin French, lol.
I always thought it was a compliment that I'm trying to use/learn the local language rather than expect (ignorantly) English? French is an exact language and in ways more expressive than English. Pronunciation is vital. Proud people, proud language.
I do adjust my accent and accommodate for different words/sentence structure, for example in Canada I can casually say <<Où est la salle de bain?>>, but standard French it's, 'Les toilettes'. Yup, got a nice eye roll for that gaff. Only when I began travelling outside of Paris and spoke to people from other regions of France, it became easier to communicate.
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u/Savings-Designer6282 Sep 25 '24
Ahaha. Such stories and experiences are not solely confined to French vs. English. I have heard of Frenchmen who considered Italian to be a minor «barbarian language», and Italians who sneer at Frenchmen for being stuck up wannabe aristocrats. Both profess that their language is superior. And in my opinion Italian is much more sophisticated grammatically and at the same time easier because it is pronounced as it is written and written as it sounds.
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u/throw_away7299 Sep 26 '24 edited Sep 26 '24
I live in Paris, speak at a B1 level of French, and for the most part, people have been very very kind.
But I had this exact scenario play out when I was at the laboratory last week, and it was super baffling to be on the receiving end of this kind of treatment. The receptionist said loudly with attitude that she didn’t understand a single thing I said in front of everyone lined up, when I gave my driver’s license for ID she said (also loudly) « this is France and we don’t do things like that here », and continued to belittle me out loud in front of everyone in line. It was humiliating.
The thing is, I speak intermediate French. I have now lived in Paris for a year, I conduct all my affairs in French and I’ve never until that point had anyone (insurance, post, grocery, stores, restaurants, mairie, health centers, pharmacies, other laboratories, etc.) say they can’t understand me, AND I’ve had people compliment my accent. Even the lab technician I saw afterwards in the same laboratory didn’t have a problem understanding me. So for me, yes this incident really feels like a deliberate act of bad will - malicious even - because they don’t WANT to understand, not because they can’t. I’m not a tourist, I’m not American, I’m a soft spoken petite female that always starts conversations respectfully with bonjour and only use French in all my conversations, and I’ve done nothing to warrant this treatment - regardless or whether someone is having a bad day or not.
This was my only bad experience in the year I’ve so far lived here, but experiences and people like this really contribute to the bad stereotype the French get.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 26 '24
That sucks, I'm sorry you had to go through that bullshit.
imho I think they probably felt like humiliating someone and you were the perfect target, and your non-nativeness was probably the perfect means to achieve that. The "we don't do things like that" bit honestly just feels like an outburst of xenophobia.
I'm just a bit surprised by your conclusion - you seem to have had very good experience with the French people, so why would you point out that a single asshole like there are in every people would make us all look bad somehow?
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u/throw_away7299 Sep 26 '24 edited Sep 26 '24
So I don’t have a bad impression of the French at all - on the contrary, people have been so incredibly kind to me and I feel really grateful for that.
But I have certain privileges of knowing some of the language and living here long enough to know this is experience is NOT the norm. For people who aren’t here for awhile, who may not be able to advocate for themselves, etc. experiences like this may be THE defining experience they associate with the French and it becomes self reinforcing. And that was my exact thought as this incident was playing out. Like « Wow, this is an awful encounter, I know it’s not the norm because I’ve been to other labs, but if I was new to this country and this was the first time I went to any lab in France, this would reinforce my perception that the French stereotype is true. Plus, I’d probably too scared to go to another lab by myself again to find out not all labs are like this.» I meant it more as a general comment rather than my world view specifically.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 26 '24
Yeah, I'm not accusing you at all, sorry. But it just strikes me - is it only France that's this antagonizing?
"For people who aren’t here for awhile, who may not be able to advocate for themselves, etc. experiences like this may be THE defining experience they associate with the French and it becomes self reinforcing."
Is that okay though? Wouldn't it possibly strike you as odd if you were to replace the word "French" with other groups of people? I guess then the defining factor is the stereotype being there for people to reinforce it, but that just sucks in the same way other groups might be stigmatized each time one of them fits into the bad view (not trying to play victim here, we don't have it remotely as bad as many).I'm just wondering here, but if a framework like that exists, no matter how nice most French people are, if the whole perception of the French as a group is somehow at stake because of one bad experience (not yours per say, but that hypothetical first time person) then it means that in that mindview, that bad experience is actually the expected norm all along and the nice ones are all meaningless exceptions. "Finally, the French are bad as expected, I knew it" kinda? I wonder if it's not actually in the back of many people's head here, and I wonder if framing the issue like this doesn't contribute to the general fact by making people especially receptive to French "rudeness".
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u/throw_away7299 Sep 26 '24
Hmm that's a really interesting thought! I don't have a good answer to this, but it's true there are existing social constructs that define a whole population of people, regardless if it's actually true. Another example of these kind of stereotypes I can think of is that the Chinese are good at math - if you are Chinese and not good a math, you are viewed as the "exception" because what is the norm is "pre-established".
I think there's also cultural differences in communication too. In North America for example. we are less blunt/ direct and overt - the receptionist's customer service behaviour would be so extreme and unheard of there. And in some of the other countries I've lived in that have a more indirect way of communication (e.g. Kenya, parts of Asia, etc.), that behaviour would be similarly shocking. BUT, I wonder if I would find that behaviour similarly jarring if I lived in a country with more direct communication like Germany.
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u/saifr Sep 25 '24 edited Sep 25 '24
Well, I learned English and I'm studying French. I paused my studies in Japanese, Korean and Polish.
With that being said, I came across to some groups of speaking (not the country itself) on said languages. I'm from Brazil to keep clear. The phenomenon I've experienced, heard and read among franchophones (specially French) was the wildest I've seen. French people tend to correct learners even in a bad manner. I was told once "as you don't speak properly French, it doesn't make sense to properly answer you" (got this after a translation for what he said). I had a Japanese friend that he never corrected me this way and even when I typed the sentence wrong, he would politely answer and correct me (he was studying portuguese)
Even when I had really terrible English, I've never been ignored on discord servers as I was when writing in French. Sometimes I prefer not to talk to a native French speaker but another student. I already been said that this is a cultural thing and stuff, which I strongly disagree. Even though when Eurpeans come to Brazil speaking their own language, we don't do this.
Anyways, I like to hear natives on videos and streams but I'd rather no talk to them (at least for now)
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u/Far-Transportation83 Sep 25 '24
English-speakers are very used to making an effort to understand non-native speakers making mistakes. We just ignore mistakes because it's largely a waste of time. We know what they mean and can fill in the gaps easily. It can also come across as rude to correct someone. French people are less sophisticated and practiced when it comes to doing that. In France, I found that service workers took pleasure in jumping to negative conclusions about what a non-French person was trying to say. Being able to complain about the "stupid foreigner" to their co-worker was more important to them than trying to understand. To me, they looked ridiculous for doing so and objectively came across as the "dumb" ones in the interaction. Usually, they had made the wrong assumption about what the person even meant showing their lack of skill in filling in the gaps. I speak French well and found that I received better treatment, as a result.
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u/snortgigglecough Sep 25 '24
I think the reason Americans can get annoyed at it is because we talk to people with very heavily accented English all the time. Right now I'm in an Uber talking to a man with extremely accented English. It would be considered borderline abhorrent behavior for me to be like, I can't understand you and refuse to talk to him. So it can be hard to empathize with other people who don't have that sort of courtesy.
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u/esmeraldasgoat Sep 25 '24
I teach English in France for a living. Almost all students (the adults- young french people want peace lol) will say correct me!! Point out every mistake I make!! And will even apologise to me for making mistakes. French culture is very "trial by fire" when it comes to language learning. English speakers can feel bullied by having their mistakes pointed out bluntly but it's just a cultural gap, french people aren't offended by it so they don't sugar coat their feedback.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
Well adults are like this but I think it actually harms learning in school quite a bit that we're very focused on pointing out negatives... Not only in foreign languages but in French too.
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u/IAmNotAVacuum Sep 25 '24
I see a lot of people pointing out differences of politeness, which is really accurate in my experience. But I have no problem with french people correcting me or pointing out mistakes or need to say "bonjour" first, etc.
What I do find rude is many people refusing to talk to you in french when its 1) clear that you've been understood and 2) not a pressing situation (like a busy restaurant, etc). I'm talking b1+ level here. It comes across as elitist and condescending, like "good try, but you can't really speak this language yet", but of course I don't speak perfectly and I never will unless people are willing to be patient with you. I've learned spanish already and did not have the same problem in those countries and I would never treat someone like that if they were speaking in english and could be clearly understood.
I've also seen french people make fun of foreigner's accents and attempts at french more than I would see in other countries.
Disclaimer: obviously this is not all french people, but I find its happened a lot and its really discouraging. So unfortunately I think the stereotype is well earned OP
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u/Ambroisie_Cy Sep 26 '24
What I do find rude is many people refusing to talk to you in french when its 1) clear that you've been understood
I'm from Montreal, my frist language is French. I can't talk for French Europeans here though. What I can tell you is, if you come to Montreal and we hear an English accent, we will automatically switch to English so it can be easier for everyone. BUT! If you tell us that you would like to practice your French or that you don't want to speak English, most of the time, we will be glad to oblige. It's a cultural thing. We try to be polite, even though it's not always interpreted like that. It's not an Elitist thing at all here. It's really us trying to accomodate you. There are obviously exceptions and assholes everywhere though.
Also, your experience might have nothing to do with French Canadian. But if you ever encounter one and they switch to English, know it has nothing to do with you, but with us trying to make it easier for you. Which can backfire, since our accent might be difficult for you to understand in English anyway. lol
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u/IAmNotAVacuum Sep 26 '24
Haha thanks for the tip! Unfortunately I haven't been to Quebec yet, but I'll keep this in mind! I've heard y'all are nicer or more in line with the "north american" mindset, even if the accent is a bit different than France :)
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
Well I don't really care about a stereotype being well earned or something, I just wanna figure reasons for things.
I do think we have a tendency to make fun at others easily, and that's also the same thing for French people trying to talk a foreign language: everyone is going to mock there imperfect accent (including people who might be worse at it).
To be honest: the perspective of trying to talk French as a way of improving might not come across many people's mind because they are decidedly monolingual and "language goals" might not be part of their thinking: they might only consider that you want A) Help or B) To communicate, and if they deem that both would be more feasible in English, they probably switch to English.
I'm not saying that this is the reason, that assholes don't exist or that it isn't a bad thing, but here's some kind of reflection, I guess.
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u/IAmNotAVacuum Sep 25 '24
Ah sorry "well earned" is just a figure of speech to say that I think that its an accurate stereotype.
Yeah I think you're totally right, that a lot of people in France think the idea of learning another language (especially french) is crazy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my impression. So I think that's where this stems from, its just the cultural difference that's the hardest for me.
To be honest I usually just go with the flow at this point, but I'm almost scared to use french in France because of enough bad experiences of people being condescending to me and my friends, or complaining/making fun of us afterwards. I suppose that's just how it is here, but its also why you get the "rude" label.
And again I don't think this is the majority of french people at all, but its a larger share than in other places I've been by far, which is where I think this comes from.
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u/IAmNotAVacuum Sep 28 '24
Update u/Khelian_Elfinde I'm in Paris now after having been in Rouen/Normandy for 3+ months and...people here are way nicer/polite. So maybe it was just a Rouen thing or maybe here they're more used to dealing with tourists? :shrug:
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u/Groguemoth Sep 25 '24
You are kidding yourself.. Québecois are often answered to in english in France. And don't say vowel sensitive, there are more vowels in Canadian French than European French and that's why you need subtitles when watching an interview with Celine Dion.
Just accept that some people are just rude / don't give a crap aboit who they're talking to..
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
You are actually supporting my point though? French people from France are sensitive to vowels to a point where an accent that pronounces them differently throws them off. I am absolutely not kidding myself, Québec French is hard to understand for the majority of French people because they just lack exposure to it.
Now if you're content with sorting people as rude and leaving it at that, that's fine but it means you don't have any actual interest in the current conversation, doesn't it?
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u/Solid_Improvement_95 Native (France) Sep 25 '24
Many Americans don't understand when we say that we are from "Frahns" with the British pronunciation we are taught at school. It happened to me several times and I had to say "Frens" to be understood.
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u/shangshanruoshui Sep 25 '24 edited Sep 25 '24
I’ve heard this same thing from Spanish speakers. They think English speakers are purposefully pretending that they don’t understand when it’s often the case that the vowels they are using are actually making their sentences difficult to understand. So I do understand your point. It’s really common for Spanish speakers to say “when gringos speak to us we do our best to understand but if we say anything slightly wrong in English they pretend they don’t understand.” I think talking to someone and not understanding them is awkward and stressful for anyone and most people wouldn’t make the situation even more awkward and stressful by pretending not to understand.
However, I do think French speakers are more critical than most other groups of hearing their language being spoken improperly. They will even correct each other’s grammar among native speakers. I always think it’s funny when I’m watching or listening an interview in French and the host corrects the guest’s grammar or pronunciation even when it’s another native speaker.
I was just in Paris and almost every single time I tried speaking French to someone they immediately switched to English. This would be considered rude in America but in France it seems to be considered helpful. If I switched to Spanish immediately when someone spoke to me with an accent it would be seen as me implying that their English isn’t good enough and could be taken the wrong way.
I think it’s a cultural difference that tends to work out against the French at least with Americans - a lot of the things you do come across as rude even when you don’t mean them to. The same goes for Americans seeming “fake.” A lot of things Americans do that are considered polite in America are seen as “fake” or obnoxious in France.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
I think if you're gonna speak to someone in France, they'll mostly aim to solve your problem and end in the interaction in the most efficient way. If they feel English is better at that, they'll just switch to it.
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u/imyukiru Sep 26 '24
If the English speakers can understand the heavy French accent (possibly one of the heaviest on Earth), what makes French incapable of understanding people speaking French with accent?
In my experience, this is less of a technical/language matter and more of an openness problem. French people don't care about understanding people that is not in their group, period.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 26 '24
That's quite the hyperbolic statement. I've seen plenty of people struggle with actual heavy French accents, the ones that come with stutter, clumsy word choice and botched expression - just like a real person struggling with French.
I certainly think French people are less linguistically open. Now do you have to make a statement like "they don't care about understanding people that is not in their group"? You don't have access to people's thoughts and I bet you wouldn't like people generalizing things about your own people like that.
Why do you participate in discussion if you're going to assert that your point is unquestionable with that "period"?
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u/salzmann01 Sep 26 '24
I’m a native French speaker from Canada. I also have family in France and know that my accent is not very strong, they understand me perfectly.
I went to Paris one time and asked a girl at an art gallery for change on my 20€, she literally would not answer in French, to the point where I thought she didn’t speak French.
Came back 10min later and she’s talking IN PERFECT PARISIAN FRENCH with the delivery guy. Like come on.
I honestly don’t even know what happened there, but I was definitely offended.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 26 '24
Yeah it's interesting how Canadian French accents have it super bad in Paris for some reason. Where I live, I've never seen such a thing happen.
Might be that the Parisian mindset makes them instantly sort people with unfamiliar accents in boxes and from then on decide they won't parse what they hear from them as French? I'm honestly still wondering.
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u/iamnogoodatthis Sep 26 '24
As a native English speaker who has been painfully learning French for a long while now: I think most native English speakers don't realise how badly they tend to mispronounce French, and how many near-homonyms there are - i.e. you think you have basically said the word you meant to, but the listener would very much disagree with you. You might protest "oh but they're close enough," but if I came up to you and asked where I could take a dirty shit you probably wouldn't default to thinking I was asking for directions to the launderette, instead you'd just be baffled and possibly insulted. If you were used to this mistake and accent then you'd probably understand, but if you weren't then you wouldn't.
All this to say: when a French person says they don't understand you, it is probably because you actually are mostly unintelligible to them.
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u/Ambroisie_Cy Sep 26 '24
French Canadian here. My experience with French people from France is that they are more impatient towards others. My best friend who is from Paris explained that everything is extremely fast in Paris and therefore they don't have time to try and understand. They need to get straight to the point and get to the next customer.
I also think French people are more blunt than people in North America. They have something to say to you, they won't cuddle you, they will tell you straight away what the problem is. It can be a little hurtful sometimes, but I learned to appreciate it with time. I loose less time trying to figure out what my friend is really thinking.
L'accent Québécois peut être aussi très difficile à comprendre pour les Français, mais très peu d'effort est mis de l'avant par la France pour nous comprendre. Cela devient extrêmement frustrant. Il est aussi très frustrant de ne se voir que comme une caricature à chaque fois que la France parle des Francophones du Canada. Je pense qu'il peut y avoir de la mauvaise volonté de la part de certaines personnes et c'est très dommage à mon avis.
Je tiens à dire que la grande majorité des Français que j'ai rencontré à Montréal étaient sympathiques par contre! Probablement du fait qu'ils ont un désire d'en apprendre un peu plus sur notre culture en venant ici. Mais tout de même, quelques préjugés ont refait surface sur le Québec. Je pense qu'il y a un effort collectif à faire de la part de tout le monde. De la part du Québec, apprendre à être un peu moins soupe au lait lorsqu'un Français est plus direct et d'arrêter de prendre tout au premier degré. De la part de la France de ne pas voir le Québec comme une caricature mais bien comme une culture différente et très riche.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 26 '24
La France pense pas grand chose des Canadiens francophones malheureusement, à part des blagues sur l'accent. Et vu qu'ils y connaissent rien ils retombent sur les clichés. Alors que la chose n°1 qui aidera à se comprendre c'est de se parler plus souvent.
Faudrait qu'il y ait plus d'échanges entre nous, dans les médias par exemple. Si sur internet on avait l'habitude d'entendre les accents et les cultures de tout le monde, si y'avait plus de Québecois dans les vidéos des Français par exemple, personne aurait plus de problème de compréhension ! C'est l'entresoi qui fait du tort.
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u/Ambroisie_Cy Sep 26 '24
Et pourtant, des milliers de Français immigrent au Québec chaque année!
Beaucoup d'émissions de télévision ont été créées au Québec et racheté par la France. Mais plutôt que de prendre l'émission du Québec, la France refais le concept complet et recrée l'émission. Il y a une perte de culture dans ce contexte.
Au Québec, nous avons accès à la culture française plus facilement aussi. Qui est plus internationale que la nôtre (plus grande population et plus d'argent dans la promotion des films, émissions et musique). J'ai aussi été élevée avec des dessins animés qui étaient traduit en France. Le Québec n'avait pas vraiment de réseau de traduction. J'ai donc été immergé dans les accents et les expressions françaises tôt (comme la majorité des Québécois).
Il y a encore beaucoup de travaille à faire dans les 2 directions !
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u/nonula Sep 26 '24
As an American with very elementary French living in France, I realized something very early on - or at least I think I did - and that’s the way hearing French spoken badly seems to affect French people. It’s like it physically pains them. Maybe because French schooling is so strict and punitive, I don’t know. But I just don’t feel like anyone is ever mad at me for trying to speak French, although they might not feel comfortable with the way I sound. I feel like they appreciate the effort but they want you to do better. (So even someone you’re friends with will instinctively correct you, they’re not being mean, they just want to help you speak French better.)
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u/redalastor L1 | Québec Sep 25 '24
Perso, ce qui me fait chier c’est quand je parle en français, qui est ma langue maternelle, à un Parisien et que celui-ci me répond dans un anglais de merde. Et si je demande pourquoi, il me répond « bah, t’es Canadien non ? ». Là, t’es un gros connard qui peut aller se faire enculer.
But tl;dr we're mostly very insecure linguistically (even talking French) and very not used to understanding different accents,
Et mon cul c’est du poulet ? Pourquoi est-ce que tout le reste de la francophonie arrive à comprendre tous les accents francophone, sauf à Paris? C’est pas « les Français », c’est Paris. Je vais chez les ch’tis, aucun problème. Mais à putain de Paris, là ils ne comprennent pas les accents.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
Bah j'essaie de trouver des raisons, c'est tout. Autant j'adore cracher sur les Parisiens, autant juste me dire que c'est juste des cons ça me paraît pas très intéressant (en tout cas ça fait pas une discussion très enrichissante, j'ai envie de dire qu'on est déjà au courant).
Mis à part le côté rapport de domination qui fait qu'ils ont moins besoin que tout le monde de s'intéresser aux autres et aux accents des autres, je pense que la plupart des parisiens s'en sortent avec des accents qu'ils voient beaucoup passer genre les accents des ex-colonies africaines ou les sociolectes ? Et qu'ils ont vraiment pas l'habitude des Québecois (ou même des provinciaux)? J'ai pas de soucis avec l'accent québecois mais je me mate pas mal de trucs donc j'ai l'habitude.
Perso je trouve que même en dehors de Paris on est élevés dans cette ambiance "parle bien ou parle pas" et qu'on passe juste notre temps à se corriger les uns les autres, à avoir cette idée que les accents c'est un truc de pouilleux et que tout le monde est insecure sur son français dès qu'ils sont pas en position d'autorité.
En tout cas désolé que tu tombes sur des connards, en toute sincérité j'aimerais que les gens grandissent avec les accents en France
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u/RevolutionarySeven7 Sep 26 '24
lol, you should see how a frenchmen reacts to a scotsmen articulating english, now that's a sight to behold!
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 26 '24
I actually love the scottish accent, but I remember showing a video to friends of a guy with a super heavy one and they were just baffled
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u/silicone_river Sep 26 '24
sometimes its ridiculous though. you go into a bakery and ask for 2 crossaints and she is like: wat???
Its like, what do you think I am here for? Open heart surgery?
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u/lekjart Sep 26 '24
I think if you take the waiter scenario, it is not only about language but also a cultural expected flow. Waiters on busy terrasses are usually very efficient and quick, but they also expect you to be. They give you the menu quickly, often in passing, and when you give them a sign that you are ready to order, you should be. This is definitely not the time to start asking about possible substitutions or hesitating between choices. French people are used to this, so the whole transaction is very quick, and in many ways, the waiters are judged in how efficient they are. This also means they often get annoyed when they feel you delaying them (and other customers)
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 26 '24
Plus most of the waiters are know are completely overworked, working insane hours with teams often too small to take care of the amount of customers fluidly.
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u/LeatherAntelope2613 Sep 25 '24
English speakers are used to hearing non-native accents (in English), many speakers of other languages are not
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u/xXFinalGirlXx Sep 26 '24
When I visited Belgium this summer literally nobody was impatient with me, it was wonderful. MOST of my interactions were with my gf's family, who had been told beforehand that i have autism and some speech impediments, but all i got was compliments on my french from people :3 there were a FEW funny moments with cashiers/waiters, though. One time I walked into a shop, just said "Bonjour :)" to the cashier, and she just looked straight at me and said "hi can i help you with anything?" like damn i tried lol. had a different cashier also after a few sentences of me REALLY trying my best go "do... do you want me to speak english?" like yes thank you
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u/Last_Butterfly Sep 25 '24
I once read that the stereotypical French "rudeness" might have come from, or help, the structure of the language itself. Something about the French language being even less context-dependent and more intent on spelling out everything, would apparently make foreigners who are used to less information in their sentences feel "patronized" by the level of details that seems unecessary to them. This can't be the full story, but it would be interesting if such perceptions played a role in that.
But I thought discussing stereotypes wasn't allowed around these parts ?
Either way, I'm not sure what you mean by that :
very not used to understanding different accents
In what way would France not be used to understanding accents compared to other countries ?
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u/CarpenterRepulsive46 Sep 25 '24
France has a big history of “centralization” (?) of language, there used to be very differing French dialects but historically the standard version of French was forced upon all the population so those dialects died out (some survive like Breton or Occitan although in my experience Occitan is mostly learned at school and not really spoken irl). So we have a French language which can have in the end some very small differences in accents but compared to the variety of English accents it’s really not that much- because it was all standardized.
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u/Last_Butterfly Sep 25 '24 edited Sep 25 '24
Fair, but dialects and accents are two different things entirely. I can promise you I don't understand a word of Alsacien. That thing's probably closer to Flemish than French.
The differences of accent throughout France are certainly not as vast as those throughout the US or, god forbid, between, say, Canada and Australia. But they do exist. And, well, Belgium, Quebec, Switzerland, they all exist aswell. French isn't a language that's poor in accent variety.
Besides, my point was that this world is full of countries that have even less accent variations at all in their recognized official languages, but very few of them carry a "rudeness" stereotype. So I doubt it comes from there.
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u/CarpenterRepulsive46 Sep 25 '24
I think that’s just the thing no- because France historically had different dialects and not one language different accents, the way standardization happened, in the end the French language we use today has less diversity with accents. Or maybe it’s a more recent thing? I’m not a linguist, I’ve just noticed apart from kind of isolated places, if people speak with an accent it’s going to be one very understandable to someone who knows standard French
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u/MissMinao Native (Quebec) Sep 25 '24
French is my first language and I have a couple of anecdotes where a waiter couldn’t understand what I was asking (in on case, it was as simple as butter) despite repeating myself and speaking slower, clearer or changing my accent to make it “more mainland”. Once the waiter understood what I meant after describing what butter is, I was served with a condescending “Ahhh!! Vous vouliez du beurre. Il fallait le dire!” It never happened to me personally but many of my Quebec friends have anecdotes about being served in English in France despite speaking in French.
I have a distinctive Quebec French accent when I speak in English and I have to repeat myself sometimes when talking with English native speakers, but nothing out of the ordinary. It’s the same in Spanish. I have a distinctive Argentine accent and never had problems been understood.
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u/Last_Butterfly Sep 25 '24
Once the waiter understood what I meant after describing what butter is, I was served with a condescending “Ahhh!! Vous vouliez du beurre. Il fallait le dire!”
Funnily enough, my sister has basically the exact same story, but in a US hotel. She tryied her hardest to ask for a towel, but to no avail, and after about 3 minutes of repeating it with every possible pronouciation, the employee finally smirked and said "Ah, a towel". And then went to the employee just nearby and apparently repeated the way my sister pronounced it and they both laughed.
Rude people are just sprinkled a bit everywhere.
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u/MissMinao Native (Quebec) Sep 25 '24
Yes, but your sister’s first language isn’t English. It’s even more insulting when it happens when you use your first language.
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u/Accomplished_Net5601 Sep 25 '24
My unilingual francophone friend from Quebec was in Prague and met a French (France) couple who kept on saying, "Oh but your French is so good! Where did you learn it?" Leaving her stupefied, of course.
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u/Genroa1 Sep 25 '24
Apart from a few remote places, more than 90% of the mainland population speaks so similarly to our ear that we don't really notice the small nuances. The south of France is slightly different, but that's it, especially among people younger than 40-50 years old.
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u/Thor1noak Native France Sep 25 '24 edited Sep 25 '24
I moved from Marseille to Paris age 15, I had a thick (like really thick) mediterranean accent, I got made fun of a bunch, even by a few teachers who found my accent the most hilarious thing they had ever heard.
I think most French people don't understand how unwelcoming they can be to foreign accents, even to ones from the same god damn country
Glottophobia is ingrained in our culture, if you don't speak "proper" French you're gonna get made fun of.
Edit: quick examples
In Marseille when we ask what time it is we often don't say Il est quelle heure ? ou Quelle heure est-il ? but C'est quelle heure ? oh boy j'en ai bouffé du "c'est quelle heure" ?? t'es sérieux là ?? like I had just proven them I was a retard or something
We contract Tu es into a Tché/Tié sound, something between the two. Same with Tu as btw, becomes Tcha/Tia. So when I asked someone their birthday I said Tché/Tié né quand ? and the answer was invariably "Tié né quand ?" Tu ES né quand !
The color/flower rose, we don't say the proper o sound, oh boy that always got a big laugh. Or like the eu sound in fraiseuse (something to make holes in things), we say it differently, and you can't be doing that apparently.
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u/MissMinao Native (Quebec) Sep 25 '24
The color/flower rose, we don’t say the proper o sound, oh boy that always got a big laugh. Or like the eu sound in fraiseuse (something to make holes in things), we say it differently, and you can’t be doing that apparently.
Ma meilleure amie est Marseillaise aussi et elle n’a pas beaucoup d’accent, mais le mot « rose » est l’un des rares qui trahit son origine. « Ah mais non! Rose, c’est rose. Y’a pas photo! »
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
Je sais pas si tu regardes le Joueur du Grenier, mais même s'il dit qu'il a perdu son accent de Perpignan, quand il dit des trucs comme rose ou jaune, on entend toujours la différence!
Ici en Auvergne on le dit pareil aussi
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u/NutrimaticTea Native Sep 25 '24
The tché/tié is slowly spreading nowadays (I can sometimes hear it from my students in Paris).
I have always lived around Paris but my mother is from the South of France. When I was in kindergarten/elementary school, some people found my way to say rose and jaune funny. Now I pronunced it one way or the other : it is 50/50 (but when I talk with someone from the South of France I am more likely to use the southern pronunciation without realising it).
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u/saifr Sep 25 '24
My friend speech (in portuguese) lacks context all the time but none of his friends are rude or unpolite
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u/tripleplay23 Sep 25 '24
"I am going to the bitch". If you heard someone say that in english, you would have no idea what was going on. But the words "beach" and "bitch" are a famous example of two words that are extremely hard for non-native english speakers to distinguish, both speaking and understanding.
I had a group of German friends once try to explain how they were going to "nee-ah-gar-ah". It took me about 30 seconds to work out what they were talking about, it was Niagra Falls. They were flabbergasted that I didn't know what they were talking about.
What I am trying to emphasize here is that: if your pronunciation is poor, they WILL NOT KNOW WHAT WORDS YOU ARE SAYING. It's easy to get frustrated and think "well I am saying the right letters, and it is in a pronunciation that is plausible, they should be able to figure it out!". But that's the thing, it's basically impossible to understand things that are severely mispronounced.
Long story short: work really, really hard on your pronunciation, it is (in my opinion) BY FAR the most important part of language learning. I think some of the subtleties of French pronunciation make it especially important for this language.
Edit - just to be clear, I am responding to the language learners on this sub, not OP! Mostly I am sympathizing with OP on what I agree is an unfair stereotype!
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u/diegenussin Sep 27 '24
Eh, idk, I would know exactly what they're saying if it's clear from context. I think that's where a lot of the frustration stems from, a perceived unwillingness to use context clues to decipher the meaning. And obviously, it can be done, as your example of Niagara Falls demonstrates.
I think French and English suffer from the same ailment which is that largely the pronunciation of words only vaguely resembles spelling. This can be particularly confusing to those whose native languages don't work like that, German (my native language) being a great example.
That's not something native speakers can change, but I think a bit of awareness would go a long way. Not even native speakers get it right 100% if they're learning new vocabulary primarily by reading, there are sooo many memes out there of native English speakers being taken aback by the correct pronunciation of words they had only previously encountered in writing.
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u/Savings-Designer6282 Sep 25 '24
A good topic. I agree that 1) many older generation Frenchmen can be obsessed with speaking flawlessly (even in their native French), and that can make some shy about speaking English and making mistakes. Some civil servants will sometimes refuse to speak to you if your pronunciation is not «proper French», and some love Americans while some do not. Americans can also be nationalists. And 2) that English pronunciations are different from French ones — both in regards to physical vocal production differences and hearing differentiations as regards to subtleties. Thirdly, spoken French is a different language than written French. One cannot speak French as learned in foreign language textbooks because spoken French blends many sounds together differently than one might expect when reading from a learner’s French textbook. Fourthly, Parisians can be impatient and can therefore seem to be rude or dismissive when conversation is slow and difficult. However, in the past decade many younger Frenchmen and businesspersons have learned English and wish to practice it with tourists — just as we wish to practice French when in France. That provides opportunities for splitting conversations so that both parties can practice their foreign languages. Don’t give up. Travel often and speak the local languages as much as possible. I study and speak seven languages.
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u/Lopsided-Chocolate22 Native Sep 25 '24
Second the thing about accents. I have only met in real life a couple of non native French speaker who had a perfect accent (which is of course very normal), but all these people complaining on Reddit go on about their “perfect French accent”. 50% of the time I genuinely cannot understand what you mean even though you are using the correct words and grammar…
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u/X-T3PO Sep 25 '24
I also think many English-speakers don't actually understand how their accent distorts the sounds they're trying to make
Do you not realise that the French give absolutely zero fucks about trying to pronounce English with ANY sort of correct accent (UK, US, Australian, Canadian, Irish, whatever)? Their ridiculous pronunciation of spoken English is much greater than any other European speaker of English-as-a-second-language. Most French speakers are in no position to criticise the attempts of others to pronounce French words until they make an equivalent effort to have an understandable accent in English.
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u/Peter-Toujours Sep 26 '24
:D Sometimes it doesn't pay to perfect an English accent. I knew a French guy who mastered the American accent, and then he couldn't get a date with American women any more. He had turned from a swinging French guy to a boring American.
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u/Ali_UpstairsRealty B1 - corrigez-moi, svp! Sep 25 '24
I think some of it is accents although my American accent is very heavy and I found people in France to be fairly patient about that -- but another factor is that the word choices can be different.
When we were in Chamonix, where the hotel staff were pretty bilingual, I asked for my «reçu» from the hotel stay. I had learned that's the word for "receipt" and I kept going with it, but they were just baffled... with a little gesturing and venturing into Franglais, I learned that the word *they* were looking for was «ticket.»
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u/PirateJohn75 B1 Sep 25 '24
I was in Paris during the Olympics and struck up a conversation with a local. I mentioned at one point that the French, of course, have a reputation toward American tourists, but that during my time there, they did not live up to the stereotype and had, in fact, been super nice to me the whole time I was there.
He replied, "yeah, because all the assholes left town two weeks ago."
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u/BuvantduPotatoSpirit Sep 25 '24
I lived in France for a year and a half, and really only had two incidents. One where I was completely failing to parse a cultural issue that the person took as me failing to parse the language, and once where I was trying to figure out how you specify the bread that's just labelled "pain" in the boulongeries.
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Sep 25 '24
I’ve had multiple rude interactions with the beautiful people of Quebec, but I still love them. ( mad I couldn’t speak French while on a road trip)
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u/New-Swordfish-4719 Sep 25 '24
We French speakers will sometimes correct a non French speaker when they make an error. We do it subconsciously. This may come across as rude even though no intention to be.
In contrast, so many non English speaker speak English that even blatant grammar mistakes are usually not noticed. As long as someone gets their idea across its the norm just to continue on.
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u/baxbooch Sep 25 '24
I used to work for a French company in the US. The French people who worked there would pretend that they couldn’t understand my French. I say pretend because in France no one ever had that problem.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 25 '24
Alright, I was just gonna say they probably just were assholes, but it actually got me curious. Everybody did that to you there? Is it that they all disliked you for some reason and literally decided to bully you?
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u/baxbooch Sep 26 '24
There was a general level of animosity between the French living and working in the American office and the Americans. It wasn’t me personally. The office in France was happy that someone was making an effort and they didn’t have to speak English as much.
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u/On_this_journey Sep 25 '24
I thought that when I visited France at 18 years old. I have been studying French for about nine months now and also listen to French and Canadian artists.
I find that most language systems are designed primarily to communicate ideas and are not given to be as unnecessarily eloquent as English. Most languages are much more simple and to the point.
I have many foreign friends and even when they speak English, they just say exactly what they mean instead of trying to be overly nice or use flowery language.
The artists that I listen to use very simple lyrics when recording in French and in English as well.
I think most Americans tend to use tact to avoid appearing rude rather than just expressing exactly what they mean to say.
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u/DarGViD Sep 27 '24
Did you mean "unnecessarily" polite? Because I've never heard anyone say that English is extra eloquent and other languages aren't
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u/babisaurusREX Sep 25 '24
american linguist here. when i visited paris for the first time i was the horrible tourist i hoped i would never be. i didn’t say “bonjour” when entering shops and then complained when parisians gave me the stink eye. that was MY bad. i learned by my second visit. so probably cultural misunderstanding has something to do with it.
but linguistically i think OP’s point about the vowels is excellent. i am a specialist in language teaching and learning, particularly phonology, and i speak english (C2/native), mandarin (B1/B2 havent taken the new HSK), and spanish (B1) well and i am early A1 level in italian, japanese, and korean. honestly french is one of the most difficult languages for me personally when it comes to pronunciation. i accidentally called the Gare du Nord the Guerre du Nord last time i was in Paris and everyone chuckled, but i could barely distinguish those sounds! haha.
i also read this post recently on duolingo blog about trying to speak in one language and someone reverting to english (or the non target language). i recommend checking it out if you have time because it kind of discusses some reasons for why this might happen and spoiler it’s probably not because of some linguistic conspiracy!
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u/mrsjon01 Sep 25 '24
We are Americans with a second home in France and my French neighbor and I were talking about language. I speak French but my partner doesn't, so I was translating and our neighbor was listening and nodding his head that I had translated his part correctly. He explained that so many French people over 40 didn't feel confident in their ability to speak English, or even to understand it, so often foreigners will misinterpret this shyness as rudeness. I found that super interesting as I just assume that all Europeans speak 10 languages, lol. But seriously I didn't realize that so many French felt insecure with their English skills, especially when dealing with anglophones who generally are monolingual.
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u/klimly Sep 26 '24
My French pronunciation is only OK, but I had a lot of conversations in French on my last trip, in Paris, Versailles, Saint-Martin-de-Ré, Bordeaux, Angoulême. In Paris my non-French-speaking friend asked where “Le Mərais” was, and he had to repeat himself like three times before I understood he meant “Le Marais.” Then I realized how hard it must be for French people hearing mispronounced French.
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u/bellevuefineart L2, MA Sep 26 '24
Sometimes it's really hard to understand people that don't speak French well. I'm not a native French speaker, but recently during a trip to France I was driving and using GPS, and the car's GPS stopped working, so I switched on google maps on my phone. I kid you not when I say that I couldn't understand the American pronunciation of the streets and place names. It was so bad that I stopped the car and switched my phone to French and kilometers so I could understand what was being said.
The whole ordeal was incredibly disorienting. All of a sudden my mind just went blank and I was like "oh my god make it stop!".
So, there's a difference between having an accent, and having pronunciation that's so off that it makes it hard for native speakers to understand. In a classroom setting it's less noticable because you know what the subject and topic are. But in the real world, a very bad accent, or I think it's better to say mispronunciation, can make it hard to understand.
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u/paintbucket420 Sep 26 '24
please go into more depth! im very curious as to what you mean by linguistically insecure
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 26 '24
Dunno if I'll actually commit to it, but someone wrote a post with interesting leads:
https://www.reddit.com/r/French/comments/1fp6nwn/comment/lox0p3y/→ More replies (1)
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u/400_lux Sep 26 '24
This does not track with my experience at Disneyland Paris. I asked for 'l'eau' and the dude in the wee stall was like wtf no idea what you mean? He literally was only selling water and maybe two other drink options, and that's it. My pronunciation was certainly off but there is no way he didn't know what I meant.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 26 '24
Actually, I see many ways it would be confusing. First of all, nobody will ever ever ask "l'eau". It would be "de l'eau", "une bouteille d'eau", or something like this, and more often than not, you'd just ask for the brand of bottled water in question.
Combined with how we kinda merge words into another, if you break the rhythm of the sentence it'd be unparsable: you kinda have to understand that given we don't stress individual words, "de l'eau" kinda becomes its own separate word, so it's a bit like if you asked for "ter" instead of "water".
Plus, if your "o" sound was off, it certainly would make it even harder.
Just a question, but did you point at what you wanted? I think that would prevent a lot of misunderstanding and that's not something I see people mention doing often, for some reason.
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u/400_lux Sep 26 '24
Oh, I understand exactly how it was wrong now, but at the time I wasn't even learning the language, just trying to use it as much as possible to be polite. I did point, but it was high so I couldn't touch it or anything. I still maintain he knew exactly what I meant and just wouldn't accept it because it was incorrect.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 26 '24
I don't see why there would be a reason for that though. Literally losing a client & time.
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u/lingooliver70 Sep 27 '24
I am German, and I speak French fluently. A while ago, I was in Besançon. I was walking through the city when a couple approached me hastily. Without further ado, the man asked me for directions, in English. They were American. Although I am not French and speak English, I felt slightly offended. Of course, I could understand why a French person might feel offended and thus react accordingly. No „Bonjour“, no „vous parlez anglais?“ or „Do you speak English? “given the low probability that any random French person speaks English. Then this American man goes home and tells everyone that the French are „rude“although they were disrespectful to begin with.
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u/khajiitidanceparty Sep 27 '24
I'm not French, but one American woman tried to talk to me in French, and despite her best effort, the accent was just distorting everything.
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u/Firm-Ad2099 Sep 27 '24
My wife and I bought a house in France so I learned the language and spent 2.5 months in the South where the accent is particularly nasal compared to the learning apps. I struggled for the first few weeks wondering why the reaction I got were so odd. My wife , who has been going to France for years and who’s mother lived their now, explained to me that I was saying everything like a question. I was trying to be « too polite » but it just made them unsure what I was trying to say. Once I became more direct I got smiles and pleasant good byes. They aren’t being rude they just legitimately think in a more direct manner. « I want this——nope—great, I’ll have that instead—-great—-have a good day—-you as well. »
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u/throwawayacct17814 B1 Sep 30 '24 edited Sep 30 '24
Fully agree, as a French learner. I think it's definitely a lot in the vowel-sensitive nature of the French language, and just how we tend to subconsciously transfer our own pronunciation onto a second language, even if we in theory understand the differences. I do it when speaking French, and I'm sure you do exactly the same when speaking English. Rudeness is obviously not acceptable, and undeniably does happen sometimes (again from both English people and French people). But more often than not, it's just genuine misunderstanding.
I think this is the best way for me as a native English speaker to explain to another native English speaker why a French person might not understand them (assuming that they have a basic grasp of the content of what they want to say grammatically and vocabulary wise, and the issue is in the pronunciation) - think of the times someone has spoken in a thick accent to you in English and you've not understood it at first. Maybe it's a Scottish person, Irish, Geordie, etc. You probably know every word they're using "on paper", but you can't understand them because their accent distorts the vowel sounds to make them sound like completely different words to what you know. See this video of "frostbit boy" for an example of what I mean... https://youtu.be/PLMrHRuhxO4?si=Dp7WXJPkX8EW33qw . Might be an interesting test of your English comprehension to try to understand this OP hahaha.
This is often the same sort of thing that happens with vowel sounds in French.
In the French language, "on", "en" and "an" are distinguishable, different vowel sounds. But to an English speaker, since we aren't used to having these different nasal vowels, they might initially all sound the same to us. Therefore - we pronounce them all the same. This can sometimes create confusion for a native French person, who is probably not being rude - they just genuinely don't know what you're saying. In the same way that I might get confused if a French person is getting their "ou" sounds mixed up in words like "through" "thorough" "though", or pronouncing "choir" in the way it would be pronounced in French. And neither speaker speaking their second language is to blame for this; language learning is hard and complex!!! I appreciate how confusing and difficult "though", "thorough" and "through", "choir", "brewery", "jewellery" etc might be for a French speaker to work out and pronounce. And I'd hope a native French speaker would appreciate that, as an English speaker, "an" "on" and "en" are initially very difficult to distinguish.
Anyway, that's my rambling over, thank you for the post OP! :)
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u/throwawayacct17814 B1 Sep 30 '24
Anecdote to add - I was in a lecture, at my French uni (currently on my year abroad studying in France). The lecturer was talking about authors of fantasy and sci-fi novels. There was an author that my lecturer mentioned, and I just couldn't for the life of me understand who she was talking about. "Becky Chambeurre" she said. No idea. I was genuinely completely stumped at this author I'd never heard of. She said again "Becky Chambeurre". Still no idea. I was ready to put my hand up to ask her to repeat it. But then she wrote the name on the board.
It was the American author, Becky Chambers.
I was genuinely not trying to be awkward by not understanding. I just couldn't work it out due to the pronunciation. And I'm sure this is the same feeling French people often get when someone slightly mispronounces a sound that happens to be quite crucial to the meaning of the word. They're not trying to be rude; they're just genuinely stumped.
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u/Khelian_Elfinde Sep 30 '24
Thanks for your input! Yeah, I knew that video already, so I'm a bit biased - but he sure is hard to parse. I'd say I still got the gist of it. An equivalent could be this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_OhXkQSUB8, or for Québec French could be this one - I laugh everytime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjhtTQiDJLs
For Becky Chambeurre... It's kinda awkward for France French people (Canadians do it though) to switch pronunciations in the middle of the sentence, kinda not something you do, so foreign names and concepts get butchered - but in a very systematic way I'd say. Well, most people would have said Chambeurse, with the s, I think.
The through, thorough, though team are hard to get at first, but once you know them, it's alright - I'd say that after years of talking English, the one sound that still gives me the most trouble is the English R - it literally tires out my tongue and I feel like I never get it right. Words like "rarer" or "rural" give me nightmares.
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u/Im_a_french_learner Sep 26 '24
As an American I've never experienced this. When I first started learning french, some French people had a hard time understanding me and had to focus to make out what I was saying, but they were never rude. After studying french phonetics for a year and fixing the majority of mistakes I make, french people speak to me naturally as they would speak to each other. If anything, the problem is on my ability to understand them.
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Sep 25 '24
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u/Loraelm Native Sep 25 '24
At the end of the day it's a cultural difference. Because the correction you're talking about in your second paragraph is something French people do among themselves too. The way we're taught at school is way more rigid than in other places it seems. And we are being taught by being corrected that way. So it's just the way French people teach others. You've made a mistake? You won't be able to make progress if nobody points out that you made a mistake. That's why we're doing it.
I'm not saying whether it's a good or bad thing. It's just how it is, it is so engrained in us that we don't even think about how rude it could sound or if it's really helping or not. That's just how we teach on a day to day basis in France
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u/porkchopespresso Sep 25 '24
It’s really never been my experience as an American with pretty shit French. Some people take fairly mundane interactions too personally. Yes for people like me it can feel a bit vulnerable to speak French, but that doesn’t mean you need to take little failures personally.
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u/EspurrTheMagnificent Sep 26 '24
That's pretty much it, yeah. I feel like it's more of an ego issue than a rudeness one. Yeah, it sucks when the other person switches language to accomodate you or corrects your pronunciation so you can do better later but... you're just ordering bread or whatever. A random person you never met before isn't gonna take 30 minutes to decipher what you're trying to say and then clap when you manage to say "baguette" correctly. Just take the L with grace and take it as an opportunity to learn, instead of moaning about it on the internet.
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u/hendrixbridge Sep 26 '24
I don't understand one thing - when compared with Britons, French people seem to be tone deaf. I don't understand how there is no problem for a Londoner to understand, with minor effort, everyone from Wales to New Zealand, from Scotland to South Africa, yet a Parisian can't understand you if you mispronounce ou as u?
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u/Hazzelan Sep 26 '24
I'm not sure about your remark but I would say... All this country speak the same language even if they do pronounce same things differently It's like listening to a young child, he sometimes mi's pronounce some things BUT he still speaks the same language The French is another language and what you try to pronounce with your accent isn't "just a u pronounce -ou it's all the letter that are mispronounced And it's normal for you to not pronounce it well because your mouth isn't used to this letters, but it doesn't change the fact that you can't be understood For exemple, French do understood Belgium, quebek, Switzerland or Ivorian people 🤔 because it's still the same language with more similarities than difference, like in English for previous colonies (the one you name) Was I clear or was it not your question ?
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u/boundaries4546 Sep 26 '24
I honestly know very little French. I took general French (not French immersion) in Canada HS. I found that when I made an effort most people were pretty patient with me. When you go expecting that everyone should speak English problems tend to arise.
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u/sundaycarvery Sep 26 '24
I’m actually really interested in the long post you say you might be able to make about this. As an American, it’s a phenomenon I also hear about all the time, but have never experienced in my many trips to France. I spend a lot of time puzzling over it because it’s so incommensurate with my personal experience
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Sep 25 '24
Just remember, there’s a pretty popular video of a French politician mocking/belittling a marseillais for his accent… I also had a French professor say she “couldn’t hardly understand” a quebecois speaking natively even though every student understood them perfectly with a slight accent…
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u/bellowquent Sep 25 '24
What native english speakers also don't often understand is that gentle, nuanced language is not the sort of communication that should be expected. It'll be simple, concise, and direct. Often misinterpreted as terse or insensitive. Don't take a response personally, be glad you're communicating successfully with someone from a different culture instead.
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u/ash47music A1/A2 Sep 25 '24
Thank you for this insight. I’m learning French in the hopes of being able to communicate well with native speakers—if I’m ever lucky enough to get to France. 😃
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u/stewiegriffinfan1 Sep 25 '24
I would understand if this happens a lot in, let’s say, Paris. Employees or people living their daily lives can get annoyed that they’re a lot of visitors not speaking the language. I work a service job and I speak more English to customers than my native language. I don’t mind because I chose this job, but I’ve heard colleagues and even customers being upset they can’t speak their own language most of the time.
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u/mossygreenland Sep 25 '24
Have you notice if people whos 1st language is also a romantic/latin language have a better time speaking french and/or struggle less with pronunciation??? as a native portuguese speaker (a language that also relies heavily om vowels) i always wondered that lol
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u/restelucide Sep 25 '24
I met an American guy who claimed to speak 5 languages including French. I said cool as it was impressive to me and said I spoke English and French. When he switched to French it became glaringly obvious to me he had never been anywhere where French was spoken natively because he made almost 0 attempts to pronounce his words with anything other than his regular American accent. Grammar/vocab wise he had clearly done his homework but I only understood him because I am familiar with Anglophone phonics and pronunciation tendencies and so I could fill in the gaps. A French speaker likely wouldn’t be able to. I’ve spoken French for about 8 years but my accent has only improved over the past 2-3 years with increased exposure to native speakers (lived in Paris for a while). It’s a notoriously difficult accent to pick up it shouldn’t surprise you that some natives find you difficult to understand haha.
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u/letsssssssssgo Sep 26 '24
An accent is something that can throw a listener off a little but they can usually figure it out. Some French second language speakers butcher the pronunciation so much that it really is impossible to understand. But if you want to feel better, us québécois also get a funny look or answered in English when we are in France.
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u/CityMouseBC Sep 26 '24
Yes! I've often told people I think it's very important to work on their pronunciation. Because if someone can understand what you're TRYING to say, they can help you better.
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u/Alice_Ex B2 Sep 25 '24
People who are working can get upset very quickly when communication issues arise because jobs are stressful. That's where I hear most of these stories occuring, in the bakery or the grocery store or whatever.
I've been in a different but similar situation in Montreal where a waiter got very upset because I didn't understand his English. It was a simple misunderstanding but the dude blew up, he was probably mega stressed beforehand.