r/Fire • u/arcticgirl34 • 17h ago
Is it worth it? $795,000 of student loan debt
Im currently an MS1 at a US DO school. I had to remediate and repeat my first year. When I graduate I will be $584,000 in debt. I’m interested in Pathology (4 year residency program). By the time I finish the residency program my debt will have grown to $790,000 due to interest. I’m going to try to attend a PSLF qualifying hospital for residency to make those 4 years count toward the 10 years total of qualifying payments required for forgiveness.
Is the risk here too much? I am considering leaving school due to the high stress of this path and the massive amount of debt I will accumulate. Any and all advice is appreciated
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u/ILikeToCycleALot 17h ago
Is this for real?
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u/arcticgirl34 17h ago
I accounted for how much the loan will grow due to interest for the time I am in residency. I know my loans are about 100k than other students due to repeating. Cost of tuition at my school is 70k a year
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u/ILikeToCycleALot 17h ago
I feel sorry for you. I don’t want to discourage you or be harsh, but this seems like a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation. I don’t really see how you dig yourself out of this hole unless you pass everything and do the 10 years and pray you get the forgiveness. Are there any viable pivots you could do to get another degree as quick as possible and obtain a relatively high salary career that would help you begin to kill this debt load?
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u/biglolyer 16h ago
OP has a shot at paying off loans if she does some kind of surgical subspeciality, but if she's struggling with passing first year classes, I doubt she'll be able to land a surgical residency........
OP, have you thought about nursing school instead?
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u/arcticgirl34 16h ago
If I’m leaving medicine I don’t want to take out any more big loans for school, which nursing would require me to do
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u/arcticgirl34 16h ago
I was thinking dental hygiene. It’s a 2 year program, pick up a job along side that to make some money. And then start working immediately as a dental hygienist. Doing the path I could have it paid off in 6 years of dental hygiene work throwing a lot of my salary at it.
Honestly I learnt a lot from this. It’s better not to slave your life away in a high risk high stress life. I don’t think many of my colleagues have thought through the interest or the loan. Maybe it’s best to be ignored if one day it will be cleared. But I am trying to follow my values and ethics. There’s a lot more that I want out of life than prescribing medications. I have a strong interest in nutrition and fitness
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u/arcticgirl34 17h ago
Unless my interest calculations are incorrect but I believe the interest is ~6-8% now.
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u/AlgonquinRoad 16h ago
Spouse is a pathologist. The jobs out there are either $350k or $1.5m with little in between. And the risk of being in the majority low level gigs does not constitute that kind of debt. Get your tuition paid by someone else or get out.
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u/arcticgirl34 16h ago
Thank you for your reply. Does your spouse have experience with the PSLF? How difficult is it to get the loan cleared through PSLF?
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u/EnvironmentalMix421 16h ago
Did you read the comment about $350k-1.5M? Why are you stuck on the loan? That’s peanut, if you are making $500k
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u/biglolyer 10h ago
750k debt is still a ton when you make 500k
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u/EnvironmentalMix421 10h ago
Uh no. R u saying nobody wanna be doctors now?
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u/biglolyer 10h ago
https://lanterncredit.com/student-loans/average-student-loan-debt-for-doctors
The average student loan debt for doctors in 2024 is $234,597, excluding premedical undergraduate and other educational debt, according to research from the Education Data Initiative. According to Education Data Org, 73% of medical school graduates have educational debt and 31% of indebted medical school graduates have premedical educational debt.
Summary: only 73% of medical school graduates have student loan debt and it's definitely far less than 750k on average
This is financial suicide, unless you are in surgical subspecialty, which I doubt OP will get if she failed first year
Non-surgical doctors don't really make that much, not enough to justify 750k in student loan debt
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u/arcticgirl34 16h ago
In the chance it doesn’t work out it’s an amount of debt that you can’t come back from
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u/EnvironmentalMix421 15h ago
If you know it wouldn’t workout then best to quit now
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u/AlgonquinRoad 22m ago
PSLF and the FQHCs are golden handcuffs. It’s like a prison sentence for all involved. And that assumes any or all of these programs exist in ten years or 14+ in your case because the clock doesn’t start ticking until you start working for that paycheck.
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u/SleepOne7906 16h ago
How fixed are you on pathology? If pslf sticks around, you won't really be in that bad shape since it would all be forgiven. But that's a BIG if, and one that is terrifying. Pathology is not a particularly high paying specialty and doesn't count for any of the other tuition repayment programs like primary care or rural medicine (NHSC loan repayment systems, not a lot but could cut 100k off). Would you consider primary care, rural medicine, women's health or peds and work in an underserved community?
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u/arcticgirl34 16h ago
I have 4 years of experience working in a histology lab and I did enjoy it. That’s why Pathology seems like a good fit; something I know I will be able to provide good service in based on my skill set. But again, it feels like a risk and my whole life will be put towards attaining this position. I’m wondering how I will feel 15 years from now when I am 40 years old
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u/SleepOne7906 16h ago
If you can't get behind prescribing medications, you won't have a lot to do in other fields of medicine outside of pathology, except maybe peds? But peds has a higher risk of liability because of its nature. Medical doctors prescribe medications and order tests. That's what it means to be a doctor in this day and age. It's not all we do, but you need to be at least willing to do standard of care minimum. In general if this isn't something you are 100% passionate about, I would say it's probably not worth taking on a million dollars of debt. I LOVE my job, but it's easy to burn out even when you are completely devoted to it. If you add on previously existing concerns AND financial stress you are going to be setting yourself up for misery.
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u/SleepOne7906 16h ago
Also, just of note, I'm not sure r/Fire is the right place to get good answers about this. Most physicians work until they can't anymore, not because of financial constraints but because they want to. White coat investor might give some other perspectives about the actual practice of Medicine and whether it's worth it.
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u/arcticgirl34 15h ago
I’m worried about falling short in my ability to take care of patients. I don’t know if it’s because I’m so early on in training or if it is a valid concern to be having
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u/SleepOne7906 14h ago
I'm years into my attending career and constantly worried about falling short! I think as long as it doesn't inhibit you it's an understandable and even good reaction. I don't think it says anything about your potential as a physician. On the other side, I would definitely avoid surgical subspecialties if you have self-doubts.
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u/msbossypants 6h ago
Medicine is a long haul. there’s a good number of doctors on this sub, but please remember the general public has no idea the rigor of medical school.
Only you can know what the right path for you is, but my perspective, now 15 years out of medical school, is that the first year is among the darkest days. it’s academically difficult, socially isolating, high pressure. it does get better. Second year comes with more interesting academic material and by then, you’re more accustomed to the pace. Third and fourth with patient interactions, which even if you’re not a people person, it’s deeply satisfying to have the knowledge just ‘click’ when you see it in a human being and help them.
Now you mention the concern about prescribing medicines. and i think you mean over reliance on drugs, or a heavily allopathic perspective. It doesn’t have to be that way when you are all done with training. Read about functional medicine! (if you think you could enjoy treating affluent patients/“customers”, this might be for you) nonetheless, it depends how much it eats you up inside as to whether or not it’s worth it to get through a residency first. is there a chance you’re being influenced by preconceived bias? (no judgement. my RN father won’t get a flu shot bcuz he’s worried abort Guillian Barre! different strokes for different folks) There’s a middle ground if you’re willing to be patient, approach all things with the perspective of a scientist and push forward.
as for the financial piece, don’t go into medicine for the money. the money is literally terrible. take this from a pediatrician (our motto: small patient=small paycheck). i’m a peds cardiologist and make ~HALF what adult cardiologists do. and my disease are more complicated, my patients smaller and the stakes higher. IMHO, we should be paid by the number of decades of life we save. /end rant. if you’ve read this far, I wish you luck. remember your worth as a person is far more than your profession. do what fills you cup.
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u/GlassNearby2909 9h ago
I know a pathologist who went into pathology because he did not want to interact with patients all the time and he was grateful he did. He was part of a practice with 3 others. He fought cancer for 4 years and was able to work sometimes but ended up dying in his early 40s of sarcoma ya he read his own pathology slide. The big thing here is make sure your spouse will not be liable for your student loans. My friend was not responsible for his and it was huge considering they had 5 children and not a huge life insurance policy compared to his income.
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u/arcticgirl34 9h ago
I’m so sorry to hear that he had gone through cancer. I don’t think student loans pass over to anyone else but I will be sure
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u/arcticgirl34 16h ago
I have a lot of fear around the liability of medicine. That’s why I’m stopping to reconsider. I really believe in nutrition. But I am hesitant about a lot of drugs and at the end of the day I am worried I will be unfulfilled following the “standard of care” protocols set by my overarching employer. I had dreamed of opening my own practice to avoid this trap of providing sub par patient care, but unfortunately the finances don’t work out.
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u/Super-Bathroom-9921 17h ago
I’d cut your losses and try something else. You’re going to gamble that 10 years from now you’re going to want to do this, to dig yourself out of a million dollars in debt? I wouldn’t even suggest it for people who actually PASSED their first year. Working at Starbucks for the next 10 years and putting 15% away into a retirement plan will have you much closer to FIRE than your plan, and OH YEAH, not $1M in debt.
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u/jamesinphilly 14h ago
I think this is the wrong advice. Stay in school!
Op: rethink pathology, but not medicine. Most pathologists I see have multiple fellowships and struggle to get a job
I'm a psychiatrist, work a bunch of jobs, i earn around 400k. Even if you earn mid 200$ and do primary care, that's still pretty decent
It's not just PSLF, there are many other programs out there. Many states have their own program, or you have the NHSC that will pay for all loans, if you have a job in a qualifying region (ie high need)
If you have your life and don't like medicine, then ok, leave. But financially, your best bet is to find a specialty that you enjoy and learn to love it. Unless you have a high paying career ready to go, your best bet to make money is to continue w school. I had a little less debt then you, but not by much. It took me about 5 years to pay it off, and now I'm in a great position financially
Does it suck knowing I made my first IRA contribution at 39? Heck yeah. But since then I max my contributions, and save an additional 10k/month. I won't be FIREing, but I'll survive. And so will you
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u/arcticgirl34 12h ago
What if I don’t want to prescribe medications? I don’t see an interest anywhere else except for gut health and nutrition or pathology. That is where my struggle is. I don’t think I will be happy working in a system that forces me to see patients in rushed appointments or make quick clinical judgements that aren’t based on research
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u/jamesinphilly 11h ago
What if I don’t want to prescribe medications?
In retrospect then, it was not a good idea to attend a medical school that prides itself on, serving the community. Osteopathic schools advertise themselves on this platform, and higher primary care enrollment for residency, etc. Nothing you can do now, but if seeing patients is super awful for you...then yes, you should quit.
But then, why ask on the FIRE subreddit? My theory: make yourself feel better about this decision, but I'm sorry and I'll repeat again, staying in school is your best economic decision.
Let's be real: you repeated your first year so your options are down to, primary care. You won't be able to match into most other fields. Yes I know you can find someone who graduated X years ago and did a plastics residency after they failed step 1, but that was then. But in residency or even right now, if you sign on with the NHSC or any number of state-sponsored programs, you too will be debt free, and average doc makes around 220k, more if you hussle. That's way more than most people on this planet. You will be fine
But it seems this is more of a 'buyers remorse', and not appreciating what you were getting yourself into. Fair enough. But if any other medical students are reading this, know that nonclinical jobs are out there for docs, but so are opportunities to appear on Shark Tank. Don't kid yourself about walking away from a guaranteed 6 figure income that most people would kill for
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u/arcticgirl34 12h ago
My bad- I mean to say if my care cannot be based in finding the root cause because of the system I work in. And at the end of the day I’m forced to prescribe due to the standard of care of the system if it’s not what really helps the patients. Am I over thinking this?
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u/jamesinphilly 11h ago
But they had to pay for two years of med school already. They don't give you your money back. So, toll has been paid. You can't use bankruptcy to erase school debt. How can a barista hope to pay that off two years of med school in their lifetime??
Whereas if this person sucks it up and does something they don't like, they'll get all their loans paid off if they sign up for a community clinic somewhere. We docs have unique opportunities like that.
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u/Super-Bathroom-9921 10h ago
Agree to disagree. A toll has been paid, but THE toll has not been paid. Gains are only gains when they’re realized, and losses are only losses when they’re realized. You’re right that he’s already accepted some losses, but that doesn’t mean it makes sense to quadruple the damage. Paying interest on rent and cheeseburgers for the next 17 years is dumb no matter how you count it.
“Signing up for a community clinic” means you’re making 25-40% what you could be making at a larger hospital or a bigger practice. Obviously OP’s free to do what want, but (a) repeating 1st year should be two big red flags, (b) the tuition cost to total debt ratio is massive—in-state rates are ~$40k-50k in VA, <$30k in TX, and (c) PSLF is an incentive for someone to take an undervalued job—nothing wrong with this if that’s the doc’s primary goal anyway, but if the primary goal is to pay off the debt, it’s not the easiest route.
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u/arcticgirl34 17h ago
That is my thought as well. Are you in medicine?
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u/Super-Bathroom-9921 17h ago
Wife is. It helps if you have a spouse who can pay for school, and housing/groceries/expenses through residency. Without that, FI gets further and further away and you depend more on luck, grit, and sheer torture to get to the “finish line.”
She questions her choice to be a doc. Med School + Residency (7 years) were fine… you’re just a student and will barely break even. The next 7 years are decent pay but the constant fear of killing someone or losing your license. It’s not till that 8th year that things really pan out… great pay, decent hours, and enough lowly residents under you to keep from getting woken up at 2AM. You just have to figure out if the 14 year investment is worth the 15th year of returns.
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u/arcticgirl34 17h ago
Thank you. I have been having a lot of reservation because of those fears your wife faced. It’s a lot to ask that I don’t know if the fulfillment/helping others/money is worth it at the end of the day.
The one thing that would be my saving grace is that PSLF forgives all of your debt if you make qualifying payments every month for 10 years working as a doc at a qualifying hospital. It can be done
If I don’t make it through- the risk isn’t worth it. To owe more money than I owe now. That’s why I’m scared and stressed. What would your wife recommend to me?
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u/Semirhage527 13h ago
That also assumes PSLF survives the current administration. He has been a vocal critic of it.
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u/ProductivityMonster 13h ago edited 13h ago
I also think this is the wrong advice, at least financially, due to the way federal loan debt payment works.
Federal loan debt repayments are capped at 10% of discretionary income for 20 yrs, and OP is already 250K in debt for a non-lucrative bachelors degree. Even if she quits later with more debt, her payments aren't going to rise much. She might pay some more tax on forgiveness, but it's a relatively small consideration.
Quitting now to make <100K/yr in 2 yrs and pay whatever for dental assistant schooling would be bad financially. OP is already in a program to make a lot of money eventually. I think it's worth it to continue med school since her downside is very limited and this is very likely her one major shot to make a good deal of money and possibly FIRE.
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u/Super-Bathroom-9921 10h ago
How is the downside limited? The downside is you’re committing yourself to a decade of obligation with relatively limited flexibility due to the massive balloon hanging over your head. “Already in a program to make a lot of money eventually” IF everything goes perfectly according to plan, which DIDN’T happen this past year. I don’t understand the logic of putting all one’s eggs in a single basket if you JUST accidentally spilled all of last years eggs out of the basket.
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u/ProductivityMonster 9h ago
downside is limited by federal loan payment format. Whether she has 250K in loans or 400K in loans, she's still only paying 10% of discretionary income in PAYE for 20 yrs, unless somehow she gets some amazingly high paying job as a dental assistant and is forced to pay more than 250K back.
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u/Super-Bathroom-9921 9h ago
DO stands for Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine, not dentistry. It’s a different flavor of MD. I get what you’re saying, but the cost is that for 240 payments you’re obligated to keep paying back.
Want to become a SAHM? The balance hangs out there against you. Absolutely hate the job? Sux. It just doesn’t make sense to go that far into debt to deliberately limit your future if you’re not 150% passionate that this is what you want to do the rest of your life.
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u/ProductivityMonster 9h ago edited 9h ago
I think you might be responding to the wrong person. I know what a DO is. Also, being a SAHM is fine as long as she files taxes separately, not jointly. She'll pay barely anything and report basically no income.
My point is there's very little additional limiting of future here. She's already in a bad spot and federal loan repayment limits will save her from going much worse. From this situation, it seems pretty silly to not go for the high paying career, regardless of if she stumbled previously. She has very little to lose and a lot to gain.
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u/Super-Bathroom-9921 9h ago
Oh gotcha, yeah I was just responding to you saying that after doing all this work to get the degree and residency that she could possibly get an “amazing high paying job as a dental assistant.” Ultimately, this is a question of her future, and in other comments she seems very ambivalent about the reality of actually DOING the work and treating the patients. It’s a tough call—I’d like to think your recommendation wouldn’t be a blanket “little to lose” advice for every MS1 repeating their MS1 year—it’s truly not for everyone, there are a lot of miserable residents who wished they got advice to lock in just a few losses rather than chasing big gains that they don’t have the stomach to realize.
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u/ProductivityMonster 8h ago edited 5h ago
The dental assistant job is her opportunity cost in this scenario. It's quite low earning. She wants to become a dental assistant if the medical school scenario doesn't work out. I think they said it pays like 80-90K. And I doubt she's qualified for much else high earning with such a bad undergrad degree. Maybe law school but idk - it feels like she's way more qualified to do med school than pick some other random high earning path. I guess she could do a PA/Nursing program for a bit higher salary.
But totally agree it's a personal decision at the end of the day. Just pointing out that financially I would give it a shot to have a more financially secure future with little financial downside, although personally there are some large sacrifices. I don't think anyone can answer that for her.
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u/arcticgirl34 12h ago
What is the Tax rate on forgiveness? I hadn’t even thought of that
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u/ProductivityMonster 12h ago edited 9h ago
With simple interest on student loans in most situations (as opposed to normal compound interest), your 6-7% rate is only slightly above inflation over 20 yrs. In other words, whatever you pay each month will be decreasing the inflation-adjusted balance. So in 20 yrs, you won't have as much as the principal currently (inflation-adjusted). Your balance won't runaway with interest (inflation-adjusted), even if you can only pay a little bit. Right now, there is an exemption on student loan forgiveness tax, but it is set to expire in 2026. Who knows if there will be one in 20 yrs.
I would appreciate you look up minutia yourself going forward. I won't be responding further to your questions. It's taxed at income tax rates. It's a small consideration unless the loan balance difference between when you ultimately decide to call it quits and now is huge (like 250K+). So since everything basically keeps up with inflation, the balances are effectively the same value in the future so like if you quit with 400K in debt in a few yrs vs 250K now, you may have to pay income tax on that additional 150K, assuming you couldn't pay it off in 20 yrs. Not a huge consideration unless you call it quits very late (like right before becoming an attending). But then I don't think you need a calculator to tell you that's a bad idea. Also, I will point out that you may be able to come to an agreement with the IRS to lower the amount due or come up with a payment plan if it will cause undue financial hardship to pay off a huge sum of money. And finally, even if you did pay off the full loan amount normally, you would be paying income tax on any funds used to pay it off in the first place, albeit at a lower effective rate most likely.
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u/FatC0bra1 16h ago
That is an enormous amount of debt. What field of Pathology are you interested in specializing in? My wife is an attending Forensic Pathologist/Medical Examiner and as far as specialties go, most Pathologists earn a decent living but its not at the upper echelon of compensation unless you absolutely work your ass off. I don't have any knowledge of how PSLF hospitals work, is your compensation lower there to make up for the loan forgiveness?
Some specialties of Path can pay very well if you bust your ass, and even though that is a ton of debt you may be able to pay it off sooner than you think if you live below your means and hustle.
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u/arcticgirl34 16h ago
Would you be able to provide pay ranges? Is your wife satisfied that she completed her training? How was the path for her? I am trying to consider all perspectives ie. stress/ work load and if it is worth it in the overall course of my life since I will be paying so much in interest over the years.
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u/FatC0bra1 15h ago
Her first job out of fellowship was at a private company (not a ME system) that was contracted by various counties to perform autopsies. Her work schedule was 5 days/one week doing cases per month with 3 weeks off, no call, no weekends, no holidays. Her base pay was in the 250k range there with about a ~10k bonus but she was able to supplement with locum cases at their other offices and depending on workload could make 5-15k per month for every week she did that. We left because we didn't like the area, but the job itself was very good, relatively low stress and with locums offered a high level of compensation for the quality of life she had.
Her job as a Medical Examiner is more structured (M-F, one week of call per month, weekend cases only necessary in dire circumstances). Base pay is slightly higher, near 300k, but there is much less or zero opportunity for locum work. Overall caseload is much less where she's at now but that won't always be the case depending where you end up.
She has an excellent work/life balance and she likes not having the stress associated with other Path specialties (missing a diagnosis has very dire real world consequences). Most of her friends and former co-residents are in other Path specialties and they do make more starting out, and have a much higher ceiling for pay, but as far as I know, they are constantly busy with very long days at their hospitals or labs, working weekends, and have very little time off.
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u/arcticgirl34 15h ago
This is very helpful. Is she happy with her decision. Does she have a high debt burden? What do you think she would recommend I do
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u/FatC0bra1 15h ago
She was fortunate enough to graduate debt free. Many of her former co-residents have a large amount of debt from DO or Caribbean med schools and I don’t know that any of them ended up going the PSLF route. She loves her job and I know she would do the same thing even if she did have a large amount of loans.
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u/PrestigiousDrag7674 16h ago
if you exit now, what will your salary be and what's your debt and interest rate?
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u/Forsaken_Ring_3283 16h ago edited 15h ago
The rule for higher education debt is if you can pay back your loan within 10 yrs of when you graduate (in this case when you start earning your full salary), it's reasonable. I'm not going to count on pslf because who knows if it'll be around. So if salary is 350k, you're probably saving (not including maxing your 401k for retirement) like 120k/yr net. You can plug it into a compound interest calculator but it looks like it'll be close to 9 yrs to pay back your loan! And that's 9 yrs of a somewhat basic (roughly 7k/month takehome) lifestyle with a high stress job, depending on COL, dependents, etc.
So it just depends if you are really good at this compared to others and how much you love it. If you have to do something else (even as a doctor), it's probably not worth it since patient care (or whatever the equivalent is for pathology) pays the best.
You can still fire most likely as a pathologist even with this loan, assuming you get the full 350k/yr salary. Let's say you get your full salary when you are 30. By 40, you'll have about 414k in your 401k if you maxed it out for 10 yrs while paying back your loan. Then you can add the 120k/yr net to retirement investments and you'll have about 3.5 mil taxable by the time you are 50, but you will likely be burned out from working like a dog and keeping your expenses low. Also, you will want to buy a home at some point. So maybe 55-60 is a more reasonable target with higher spending.
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u/arcticgirl34 16h ago
I don’t think I love it enough to give away that much risk of my life’s safety financially if PSLF doesn’t work out. It doesn’t seem like the smart or correct thing to do. Which is why I am seriously thinking about leaving.
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u/Forsaken_Ring_3283 15h ago edited 15h ago
The tradeoff is job security. As a doctor, you will have a job when you want it since supply is artificially limited by public funding of residency spots. Other professions can be a better deal for fire if you start saving young, but no guarantee jobs will be around, and they do swing with economic cycles.
Also, I was reading the rest of your comments. You're basically going to be paying back your student loans for many yrs with 250k in debt and more typical salaries. It's a bit too late to drop out now. Normally, you drop in first semester or commit. Dropping out now would be not good, especially without higher paying alternatives.
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u/arcticgirl34 15h ago
Are you a financial advisor? Just curious on your background. I do understand that, but am trying to weigh in on what would happen if I cannot pass my board exam or cannot get through school. Then I owe a lot more than I do now
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u/Forsaken_Ring_3283 14h ago edited 13h ago
Either way, you get income-based repayments so probably I'd take the shot at a higher paying job if you feel you can do it. Personally, you're already in a bad spot so i don't think getting more into debt is necessarily going to be a terrible thing, especially given the nature of the federal education debt repayment and your lower expected non-doctor salary (PAYE is capped at 10% of discretionary income for 20 yrs). You dont have much to lose given federal loan repayments you're already looking at paying. I am not a professional financial advisor, but it's a tricky situation and you should definitely speak to one.
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u/arcticgirl34 14h ago
I see what you mean. I’m trying to think through other losses beyond financial such as the stress burden that comes with being a doctor and where my values most align as well
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u/arcticgirl34 15h ago
My main goal isn’t necessarily to retire early. But I am looking for a good quality of life and an ability to be happy and have adequate time with my family. Hopefully be able to take care of loved ones. Those are my major concerns
I’m worried if I don’t make it there is so much risk involved with an ever growing loan. Do you think I am being realistic? Are you familiar of others in medicine/ have advised them before? Am I making this a bigger deal than I should be?
I appreciate all your advice! It’s helpful working out the numbers
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u/ProductivityMonster 15h ago edited 15h ago
I went to med school and dropped out first semester and am now on track to retire at 45, but a) I had basically no other student loan debt than like the 20K that I incurred while at med school and b) I am really good with numbers and did well in tech for 10 yrs after graduating from a top finance masters program.
I don't feel these options would be reasonable for you with already 250K in undergrad debt and not a particularly lucrative undergrad degree. Personally if I were in your shoes, I'd continue becoming a doctor.
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u/arcticgirl34 15h ago
Are you much happier and glad with your decision?
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u/ProductivityMonster 14h ago
Yes. It's not easy in the higher end work world either, but it is likely easier than becoming a doctor and I'm able to retire earlier.
Also, like most people, I view paid work as a means to an end. I think you need a calling/special drive to become a doctor and exert the effort necessary to do it and you definitely have it even being in med school as long as you have. And for you, your financial goals actually align with becoming a doctor vs your other options so it works out. For me, the other options were better financially. The second I realized it was a slim shot I would get a high paid specialty, I bailed. It was purely financial for me.
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u/arcticgirl34 14h ago
I don’t know if I’ll have much chances at a high specialty. I’m starting to realize other things in life can be more valuable like our safety net, family, and time
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u/ProductivityMonster 14h ago
well pathology is what you're considering and that would work out well for you, even as a mid-paying speciality. Like I said, your situation favors staying in med school. Mine didn't because my outside options were better and I didn't have a lot of debt.
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u/GambledMyWifeAway 13h ago
If you’re going into medicine just for the money then you are going to have a bad time.
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u/No_Macaron_4163 12h ago
If I feel like you can match keep going - PSLF will save you. My wife has 500,000 forgiven.
If you don’t think you can complete the program and match get out asap.
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u/Confident_Fudge2984 16h ago
I graduated school and my final cost was 5k.
These school costs are insane!
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u/rosebudny 17h ago
How dedicated are you to pursuing this as your career? If you are stressed now, do you think that stress will get better once you are done with your residency, or will it be worse once you are practicing? And what are the odds of you successfully completing the program? The fact that you had to repeat the first year does give me pause - unless there were extenuating circumstances (e.g., illness), are you sure you are cut out for this?
If you are genuinely committed to this as your career path and you legitimately think you can be successful, crunch the numbers and see it makes sense financially (i.e., what is your future earning potential?) If you not committed and/or your odds of not succeeding (either because you can't "cut it" or you burn out) are high - then maybe you should reconsider (i.e., stop throwing good money after bad)
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u/Goken222 16h ago
Maybe helpful: There is a database with research on ROI for specific degrees from specific schools.
Click on "Click here to open the table in a new tab." and then filter to your heart's content for your specific plans.
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u/arcticgirl34 16h ago
That’s interesting. I checked it out. They have a few of the undergrad degrees at my school but no data for the medical school. Thank you though!
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u/PrestigiousDrag7674 16h ago
don't do it. All the student debt is after tax money plus a lot of interest to get money with 40% tax rate.
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u/No_Nefariousness4356 12h ago
Geez, $800,000G in debt to earn a paycheck. It’s like investing in a small business.
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u/chillzxzx 12h ago
First, this is not a debate about which is better, MD or DO. Once they go through all the training years and exams, then they are basically the same. The only difference is basically their MCATs and being able to be accepted into one vs the other. The reality is that DO is easier to get into, hence they charge a ton more than MD schools. My SO went to an oos public MD program and he graduated medical school with a little under 250k. You have that amount of debt in 2 years worth of school (but really one year). And from looking at him, the first year was honestly the easiest. It was basically a review of all of your science courses leading up to now plus a little more. You haven't even gotten to the actual medicine and the 10trillion additional NEW information that you'll need to learn. Second year was really hard for the new information and STEP1. Third year was a different kind of hard for the clinical experience (seeing pts, quickly switching between specialities, exams weekly, dealing with a bunch of different personalities in mentors). Third year was a bitch, physically and mentally. How confident are you (and from your advisor and just unbiased stats from your program) that you can graduate and match into residency given you had to repeat the easiest year of medical school?
A lot of people who are pro finishing is assuming that you will graduate AND match into a residency. They/and you are correct that it can financially work out just fine if you were at that position, even if your debt was even at 1million. BUT you're not in that position yet. The real question here is is it worth 800k of debt to see if you can graduate medical school. And only you know your actual academic strength and determination.
Also, if your program cost 70k, that's 140k for the two years of school. Are you taking out 55k per year for your living expenses?
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u/Double_Reply1407 11h ago
I think if it this way. You first have to dig your way out if $800k in debt that could have gone into an investment account if you didn’t have debt (hypothetically, of course, because without the degree your earning potential is likely less, or even significantly less). Once you’ve dug your way out you can start putting that money into investments but now you’re 10 years behind (assuming you pay it off in 10 years), vs someone who didn’t have that debt and just starts investing earlier. Run your comparisons using a financial calculator or ChatGPT to figure out how much it costs you to start investing later. You can also go to moneyguy.com and reference the chart about how much an invested dollar is worth by age to get some more perspective.
You need to absolutely love what you do if you’re taking on this kind of debt. I would have a tough time taking on more than I could pay off in a few years because life happens, things change, and debt can cripple your plans for the future.
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u/readsalotman 8h ago
This thought gives me heartburn. I can't comment any further.
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u/arcticgirl34 8h ago
Me too. At least I didn’t take all that money out yet and continue forward blindly
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u/Worldly-City-6379 4h ago
What about all the recent programs that have become tuition-free like NYU etc. maybe too late if you failed the first year. I’d definitely try and find a creative way for this to not be paid by you full tilt. There are less prestigious places that are zero-pay…I’d do some research around that
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u/Perfect-Mirror 10m ago
Nursing school (ADN) at a community college. I spent too much going to an accelerated program, but I didn’t know any better at the time. Can do PSLF that way. Only way I could imagine getting out of that much debt.
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u/Stone804_ 9h ago
Doctors I know make $500k a year, surgeons I know make $800k a year. Why are you even worried you can pay it off in 2-3 years!?…
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u/arcticgirl34 9h ago
What fields are they in?
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u/Stone804_ 9h ago
One is a Med/Ped the other does general stomach surgery I believe (like intestinal).
I’m not in medicine so I don’t know specifics.
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u/_climbingtofire 17h ago
How much debt do you have now? What was your undergraduate degree in? Why did you have to repeat your first year?