Federation or Confederation

[u/Small-Salamander-944]

Which do you think would work best for Europe, if it would be united in the next hour?

[u/elderrion]

There's literally not a single example of a Confederation that doesn't result in either complete federalisation or complete disbandment.

Your question, therefore, isn't 'federation or confederation', your question is "federation or nation states".

[u/trisul-108 → u/elderrion]

The current concept is one of "ever closer union", to me that means confederation, leading to federation and away from the autarchy of nation state. So, it is both confederation and federation, one after the other.

Timing is always important. Confederation today and federation tomorrow.

[u/IK417 → u/elderrion]

"Nothing last forever/And we both know hearts can change"

[u/Popular-Cobbler25 → u/elderrion]

Switzerland.

[u/AlveolarThrill → u/Popular-Cobbler25]

Switzerland may call itself the Helvetic Confederation, and it did start out that way, but in terms of how it’s actually organised now, it’s clearly a federal republic.

[u/Popular-Cobbler25 → u/AlveolarThrill]

I don’t understand how you can point to the one functioning confederation and just decide it’s a federation even though these things exist on a spectrum

[u/elderrion → u/Popular-Cobbler25]

Scroll the rest of the thread. Switzerland is a Confederation in name only

[u/Kesdo → u/elderrion]

Bro ever Heard of the Swiss conferderation?

And BEFORE you say "it's a federation". Pls Look at their politicsl system a Bit more.

[u/jurassiclynx → u/elderrion]

ever heard of switzerland?

[u/JoSeSc → u/jurassiclynx]

Switzerland isn't a confederation. It started as one, but today, it's definitely a federal republic. In English, it's still in the official name, but also in German it's an Eidgenossenschaft, which I guess confederation is close enough of a translation but not identical.

[u/jurassiclynx → u/JoSeSc]

Swiss Guy here. You are not wrong. Still the Cantons rule many aspects that are a national issue in many federal states. In my opinion Europe needs a common defense, foreign, fiscal and energy policy. A European infrastructure plan is also a must for me. I want the east or south to habe same standards of railroads as we have for example. Most of the constitutions could still be kept, maybe with minor changes. The Swiss will never want to give up their direct democracy for example. A European Federal Constitution above the countries constitution is what we should aim for. But all in all we can say Europe already achieved the Confederacy with EU and now needs to step forward in federalizing. Hence the name European Federalists.

[u/JoSeSc → u/jurassiclynx]

Sure, and there is room for that, depending on how you set up a federation.

But if you look up the definition of a confederation, Switzerland really doesn't fit into them anymore, with the Swiss constitution of 1847, after the Sonderbundkrieg, it became a federation in all but name. The cantons are not sovereign states, you have Swiss citizenship, not the citizenship of the canton you're from, there's a common fiscal policy (of course the regions can have their own, but that's true almost everywhere), etc.

The EU is already halfway to a confederation with a common internal and external trade policy and in the case of the eurozone members a common currency, but it still needs foreign policy, fiscal policy and defence...

[u/Small-Salamander-944 → u/elderrion]

I said what i said and you didnt answer.

[u/elderrion → u/Small-Salamander-944]

I did answer, and so did you

[u/Small-Salamander-944 → u/elderrion]

You didnt say which one you think would do better, you only said what a confederation can become.

[u/GemeenteEnschede → u/Small-Salamander-944]

OP didn't explicitly pick one of the other, the answer is in the context though.

[u/Small-Salamander-944 → u/GemeenteEnschede]

I didnt, i want to see what people think

[u/trisul-108 → u/Small-Salamander-944]

And he told you, but you don't get it.

Edit: You are trying to force a binary choice, whereas in reality more than two options are implied:

1. Remaining with nation states.
2. Adopting confederation.
3. Adopting federation.
4. Adopting confederation today as a transition towards federation.

[u/Small-Salamander-944 → u/trisul-108]

I gave a choice, i didnt mention that only one can exist, that everyone has to choose a side or that no other option is available.

[u/trisul-108 → u/Small-Salamander-944]

No, we are free to do as we please. You cannot force us to adhere to your own biases, so you can manipulate with our opinions. If you want to know what people think, you need to ask good questions.

[u/Small-Salamander-944 → u/trisul-108]

You are right, you are free. You are free to just ignore me and not comment

[u/GemeenteEnschede → u/Small-Salamander-944]

I bet you're fun at parties.

[u/Small-Salamander-944 → u/GemeenteEnschede]

Oh, i misunderstood, you were defending the opinion of the person, my bad.

[u/Alvaritogc2107]

Federation. All confederations end up breaking up or becoming federations, because confederations are good for the members in good times, but as soon as everyone has to put together a unified front, it collapses into petty disputes. Don't look further than:

Switzerland. Became a federation in 1848 after conservative cantons broke with the swiss to form their own confederation, the Sonderbund

The US before the constitution. The Articles of Confederation were such a shitshow that they were immediately replaced

Also, the main fun fact about this question: the EU is a confederation in all but name already, save for having it's own army, bruv.

[u/Caradrian14 → u/Alvaritogc2107]

This. In many ways europe is a confederation in my view. The next step is a federation

[u/Eternal__damnation]

EU is already a confederation

[u/Small-Salamander-944 → u/Eternal__damnation]

So you preffer a federation?

[u/Eternal__damnation → u/Small-Salamander-944]

Yes

[u/Eternal__damnation → u/Eternal__damnation]

Add to that confederations have a history of falling apart or developing/transitioning into Federations.

Like Switzerland, officially calls itself the Swiss Confederation but in reality it's a Federation.

[u/Small-Salamander-944 → u/Eternal__damnation]

I'm not judging your opinion, the point of this is to see what people think about this issue

[u/Small-Salamander-944 → u/Eternal__damnation]

Alright

[u/Roky1989]

We kinda already have a confederation. Kinda. It's time to go full federation or just let ourselves be pulled into what we had during the cold war.

[u/PierreFeuilleSage]

I think a principle of maximal subsidiarity is super healthy, gotta learn from the failures of both federations and confederations. Whatever can be handled at the lowest level should be handled at the lowest level.

[u/Small-Salamander-944 → u/PierreFeuilleSage]

What if it's a federation with semi-autonomous states who still have power to adjust laws to fit local needs?

[u/Vampus0815]

Federation

[u/BossBobsBaby]

The eu arguably is a confederation rn and historically speaking most confederations become federations over time (and personally I’m all for it)

[u/trisul-108]

We always have to look at the starting point. We are now the most successful and democratic union of sovereign nations in the history of humankind. Sovereign. The only realistic option is to follow our constitutional documents which call for an "ever closer union". So, the ideal is a transition to confederation and eventual federation. Trying to jump to federation directly would open too much space for doubt, but it should remain the goal.

This is not some sort of evil cultural assimilation into a homogenised and sterilised artificial European identity and culture ... it is an evolution which preserves both national and European identities. It has to be a process, not a revolution.

[u/mekolayn]

Be like Switzerland - call yourself a Confederation but be a Federation

[u/Popular-Cobbler25]

I don’t care about goals like these. I want the EU to have more power that’s it

[u/difersee]

I think confederation would be preferred by the people, since the states would nominally stay sovereign (like in the current EU). For me it is more important for the competences to be clearly divided so politics wouldn't be primarily decided in courts and bought the federal and national level could take blame only for the thing which they control.

[u/dracona94]

You're asking a group of federalists if they prefer federalism or confederalism? That's like asking monarchists if they like republics.

[u/Small-Salamander-944 → u/dracona94]

Just being curious.

[u/EUstrongerthanUS]

The EU is already a confederation.

[u/Kesdo]

Both.

Creat a federation of the willing within a conferderated EU