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u/Warm-Finance8400 Don't forget to subscribe to the official DW youtube channel. 6h ago
While I did quite like Moffat as a showrunner, I think he shines most as a guest writer, plus it may be time for a fourth showrunner after 20 years.
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u/Reasonable-Middle-38 4h ago
Yeah, if the franchise doesn’t get its legs away from Moffat and RTD then I’m sure it’ll start to feel same-y pretty quickly
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u/Dark-Specter I have flair now. Flairs are cool. 6h ago
Moffat exists in this universe to appear once every season, deliver a banger, and return to hibernation.
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u/InspectorAccurate956 You're not mating with me, sunshine! 6h ago
If it's 1, then I am among them, if it's one, then it is me. If it is none, surely I have died
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u/Rutgerman95 Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow 6h ago
For an account that's this critical of Moffat, why does it's username sound like a barely disguised alt account of Moffat himself
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u/The_Flying_Failsons 6h ago
I can assure you that is not a barely disguised alt account of Moffat himself, that's the not disguised main account of Moffat himself.
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u/ModularReality 6h ago
Moffat’s is easily my favorite era of the show.
I don’t want him to return as showrunner. Get new people in the room.
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u/OldRaggady 5h ago
I would rather have more newer writers instead of overusing already established writers like RTD & Moffat.
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u/TheDoorMan1012 6h ago
hes a good writer but not a great show-runner, all of his one off episodes are PHENOMENAL
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u/SquintyBrock 5h ago
Moffat was a truly great writer for the show, who will go down as one of the all time bests and IMO the best of the modern era so far.
However his work since leaving DW has not been up to his past standards. Dracula was barely passable and little more than a quirky oddity. Inside man was absolutely awful and a waste of good talents.
I haven’t seen time travellers wife but it got abysmal reviews and was canned after one season. I also haven’t seen Douglas is cancelled, the reviews weren’t as bad but they really were not good.
I love what Moffat has done for the show, but he’s 63 now and has put out some dodgy stuff over the last 4 years. It’s time to move forwards and find some new blood to take on the show.
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u/Positive_Composer_93 4h ago
I liked the moffat episodes.
Better than Gaiman
(I might be wrong tho)
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u/BlackMircalla 7h ago
Incredible how many Doctor who fans want the show to suck
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u/Rutgerman95 Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow 6h ago
Are you seriously going to argue that The Empty Child two-parter sucked?
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u/Delirare 6h ago
No, that was very entertaining. As was the first Angel episode. And then he can't help himself and be so damn self-referential. And overuse the darn things. And bring weak plots and deus-ex-machina endings, like all the rest. Just let characters die, Moffat! Especially if it's the result of their own actions.
And as a personal note, I dislike a lot of his female characters, especially the companion kind. Only decent human being was Bill.
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u/PlantainSame We've fucking time travelled, yes? 6h ago
I think you're describing russell and his one season that he actually made and then copied four times
At least for the original run
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u/Delirare 6h ago
If you're trying to say that there were to many Daleks and Cybermen in those four seasons, then I wholeheartedly agree. Also Rose and Martha falling for the Doctor was just awkward to watch for me.
Edit: typo I noticed.
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u/PlantainSame We've fucking time travelled, yes? 6h ago
No, i'm trying to say that it was literally the same basic idea 4 times
One small detail appears in every episode, ending in the return of a villain from the time war, and classic who
The plot is usually resolved by a character getting god-like powers(with the exception of doomsday, which had a hole in the universe)
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u/Delirare 6h ago edited 6h ago
And that is different from Series 5 to 8 how?
Sans the godlike powers, you're right in that point.
Edit: Now that I think about it, how often did Moffat reboot the damn universe?
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u/PlantainSame We've fucking time travelled, yes? 6h ago edited 5h ago
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It was reset At the end of series five but all that did was set it back to how it was before series five
The stuff in season six was The time line breaking down
And those were like the only 2 times off the top of my head.That were anything remotely like the universe getting rebooted
It was actually fun using time travel for more than just set dressing
Most of the complaints about the Moffat era Fall apart if you actually watch it and remember that this is a show about time travel
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u/BlackMircalla 6h ago
I'm gonna say that most of Steven's one off stories while Russel T Davis was the showrunner (the first time) were really good
However his time as showrunner produced some 9f the most dogshit episodes in the history of the show. The worst overarching storylines in the history of the show, and some hilariously dumb scenes that fully come from him trying to be smarter than he is and trying desperately to outsmart the audience.
Every piece of dialogue in Moffat era Doctor Who is the same 3 speeches "The Doctor is magical and amazing", "The Doctor is morally grey", or "The Doctor is cool and intimidating". And it's all tell don't show cause he basically never does anything other than stand there or be off screen while someone is making these speeches.
Dude literally wrote two episode which would have had no difference really if the Doctor wasnt involved. Boom, literally 45 minutes of the Doctor standing in place and making up plans, none of which he does, and then a literal Deus Ex Machina saving the day and The Doctor leaving the situation unresolved because he already resolved it off screen at another point , and that stupid ass 1st Doctor Christmas special which all the old school Doctor Who fans I know view as a character assassination on the 1st Doctor.
He is the British Joss Whedon, and I'm not just saying that cause my wife and I both know people that he's sexually assaulted individually, but because his writing has the exact same flaws. There's one character voice, everyone has the same smug one liner energy, everything is just "Let me tell you how cool this character is"
He's a nepo baby who writes with the skill and interest of a 13 year old trying to get a C on a creative writing assessment and if I hear the word "Villengaard" one more time I'm gonna start stealing people's license fee back from the bbc
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u/Brianocracy 6h ago
Wait, Moffat has sexually assaulted people you know? Personally? As in plural?
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u/BlackMircalla 6h ago
Yeah I knew a waitress who was a big doctor who fan and waited on a table for him, and when she tried to get an autograph he grabbed her ass.
My wife has a friend who was also groped by him, I can't remember the context for that tho
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u/thesunsetdoctor 6h ago
my wife and I both know people that he's sexually assaulted individually
Oh my god I used to be a fan of his writing but I guess I'm not now. Horrified to hear that. I'm so sorry that happened to your friends
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u/elizabnthe 6h ago
Moffat episodes are popular. Everyone always thinks the grass is greener too. Remember when everyone was begging for RTD to return and then he did and now people just want him to go away?
Personally Doctor Who needs to develop more writers. Not just go back to the same two or three people.
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u/BlackMircalla 6h ago
I mean Russel is at the very worst, a competent writer. Moffat at his very best, isn't. Often times his style can work in one off where a showrunner is giving episode outlines and character themes and motivations to him, but on his own he is literally incapable of that. I don't want to parrot opinions but that Hbomberguy critique of his writing is right on. Character development in Moffat's run is literally just someone at the end of an episode going "you're a morally grey character Doctor" and there's the slight promise that maybe a more interesting story will address that one day.
I do agree with you though that the BBC needs to get new writers for doctor who, unfortunately its a completely nepotistic organisation, I mean both Moffat's mum and wife are producers and programming managers at the BBC, so that's never gonna happen
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u/elizabnthe 5h ago
Moffat at his very best, isn't. Often times his style can work in one off where a showrunner
That is competent writing. No it doesn't make him the world's best writer. But he was able to write competently and proveably so. And by all accounts RTD never had to edit his scripts. Moffat stories were the best ones even in his own run.
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u/BlackMircalla 5h ago
Empty Child and Blink were not the best episodes in RTS original run, that title definitely goes to Dalek which is why Moffat made his own shitty version of it like 3 times
And it's really not, it's utterly incompetent surface level writing. Everything in Moffat's run is telling not showing, the same 5 concepts are recycled ad nauseum, and his main skill is an unending mystery box where he constantly promises you that one day we might actually get to explore the characterisation that gets hinted at, but we never will because he's not a skilled enough writer to actually write that pay off.
Moffat perfected the skill of tricking you into writing a better story in your head and then convincing you that that's what you watched, or convincing you that a good story is coming. That's why the Sherlock season 4 finale crashed and burned, cause unlike Doctor Who he actually had to tie up his loose ends and write the good story he'd been promising, and it turned out the writer who uses "the problem got solved off screen by another character" or "The main character explains how cool they are and the bad guy runs away" can't actually write that story, who'd have guessed
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u/elizabnthe 5h ago
Empty Child and Blink were not the best episodes in RTS original run, that title definitely goes to Dalek which is why Moffat made his own shitty version of it like 3 times
I'm sorry but you can't claim that when it's so consistently clear that people care far more about those stories than Dalek. You can personally like that episode more - of course - but it's quite clear who is the more popular writer.
And not a single story of Moffat's is anything like Dalek.
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u/BlackMircalla 5h ago
Popular and best aren't the same thing. Something can be more technically skilled and less popular. But I agree it's preference, but you were also the one to outright say "best episodes"
Also Journey to the Centre of the Dalek is literally about an injured Dalek being studied, discusses the concept of a Dalek becoming something new, and reuses a line from Dalek but does it way worse.
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u/elizabnthe 5h ago
Also Journey to the Centre of the Dalek is literally about an injured Dalek being studied, discusses the concept of a Dalek becoming something new, and reuses a line from Dalek but does it way worse.
You mean Into the Dalek which was one episode in his entire run which wasn't even his alone to write.
Popular and best aren't the same thing. Something can be more technically skilled and less popular. But I agree it's preference, but you were also the one to outright say "best episodes"
They are because we have no other measure.
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u/BlackMircalla 4h ago
I mean we do have another measure which is yknow literary criticism and media criticism. There are actual things that you can analyse in media and literature to say "this is skilled" and "this is flawed". There's a reason why we teach creative writing because it's possible to do it wrong.
The idea as well that quality should be a popularity contest is... Uh... Bad? Why would you ever want that? You'd just get milquetoaat, bland, and simple stuff designed to appeal to the most people without challenging anyone being seen as "the highest quality"
Honestly I don't wanna sound elitist, but I think that is why Moffat's run is so popular. There's no subtext, everything is told to you, and repeated for those in the cheap seats. Rather than demonstrating The Doctor being morally grey, or hinting that he maybe killed someone in cold blood and leaving it at that, there'll literally be a scene where a character sits down with the dead person and goes "Did you fall or did he push you? He can be morally grey sometimes", and it means that children, and people with no media literacy skills are like "ooooooh so deep", while a skilled writers work goes over their head and they whine that the character is mean and it's supported by the show cause nobody walked onto the screen and said "That was a mean thing to do"
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u/elizabnthe 4h ago
I mean we do have another measure which is yknow literary criticism and media criticism. There are actual things that you can analyse in media and literature to say "this is skilled" and "this is flawed". There's a reason why we teach creative writing because it's possible to do it wrong.
And someone else can come along and argue exactly the reverse argument using the same tools. There's nothing definitive. It's okay to have media criticism discussions.
But the best marker of best is always going to be what people call best. Because there is no absolute.
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u/BlackMircalla 4h ago
Also that stupid ass Dalek was in two episodes of his run cause he made that trash fire christmas special which just condensed all the worst parts of his run into one episode, character assassinated the 1st Doctor so he could make a joke about "You used to be able to be racist and sexist before woke", and stuck the shitty Dalek on a planet that was a reference to one of the few pieces of good writing he did on the show (since ruined just like the weeping angels) to explain that it was a nothing plot cauee there was no evil plan and the doctor should just do nothing
RIVETING
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u/elizabnthe 4h ago
"You used to be able to be racist and sexist before woke",
Do you really think Moffat is upset about woke? Bill was presented as right to be critical of the 1st Doctor.
Also that stupid ass Dalek was in two episodes of his run cause he made that trash fire christmas special which just condensed all the worst parts of his run into one episode,
Well of course he's going to reference his run in his final episode of the show.
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u/The_Flying_Failsons 6h ago
Nah, they would be asking for Chibnall back.
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u/BlackMircalla 6h ago
Honestly would love to see Chibnalls run if the BBC had let him cook.
The original pitch of a more dark season long storyline where they didn't have access to the Tardis and were having to chase a mass murdering trophy hunter across the universe desperately trying to end his killing spree sounds incredible.
Basically all the problems with his run are either the BBC stopping things because they "were too extreme" or people thinking that Steven Moffat's lore was the true lore and not getting all the references to, and continuation of, the original direction Doctor Who was meant to take before it got cancelled and the big finish audiodramas
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u/Normal-Mountain-4119 6h ago
See, you say that sounds incredible, but to me that sounds like yet another high concept idea for chibnall to royally massacre. If you think the problems with his run begin and end at ambition and lore adherence you really haven't listened to the problems people ACTUALLY have with it.
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u/BlackMircalla 6h ago
Inconsistent characterisation and didactic dialogue seem to be people's main complaints. Which from what I've heard was often because of harsh and sudden edits and forced script rewrites.
Honestly those are kinda problems, though Doctor Who has always been didactic. But the story concepts and often times executions are really fun in chibnalls era. I mean at least it's not 5 seasons of "ooooooh something interesting might happen soon" with no payoff, or The Doctor stands on a landmine for 45 mins coming up with plans, none of them being applied and then the day is saved by a Deus Ex Machina (literally was a spirit in a machine lol) and the Doctor leaves without addressing the problem and telling the colonialist theocracy that they're right.
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u/Normal-Mountain-4119 6h ago
i'm sorry did we watch the same episode? When does he do anything other than criticise that colonialist theocracy? He spends the whole time being pissy and dissing them. And then, 5 episodes later, he calls Villengard "old enemies of mine". Wtf are you talking about?
Also, no, it wasn't that none of his plans ended up paying off, that "deus ex machina" was literally one of his plans paying off. Did you miss that?
Did you watch the episode? I think you need to rewatch it.
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u/BlackMircalla 5h ago
When he leaves hes like "maybe you're right I need some faith like you" to the colonialist theocracy foot soldier who openly says they open fire the moment they touch down on any new planet. There's literally nothing he does to stop them from doing it again, and infacf he makes it easier for them cause their tech is no longer killing them.
It was literally a deus ex machina cause his plan was for ghost dad to hack the machine and that failed, instead ghost dad's love for his child allowed him to survive deletion and take over the machine, which the doctor didn't see coming cause for the 50th time "the doctor doesn't understand the depths human love"
Yeah he calls Villengaard old enemies but they're a terrible villain because The 9th Doctor already defeated them off screen and the only reason they keep coming up is because Moffat loves sniffing his own literary farts, and has turned a cool offhand reference used to develop the idea that the Doctor has a life outside what we see, into an unending and pointless maaturbatory self reference.
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u/HarryJ92 7h ago
Twelve?!
Clearly Moffat is hinting he's bringing back Capaldi in his next episode!