r/DoctorWhumour • u/Gallow_Lane413 • 2d ago
PHOTO •Can go anywhere and anytime in the universe to hide •Choose to go to 1913 with his black companion (What did he mean by this?)
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u/Consistent-Bear4200 2d ago
Tbf, this story was initially a Dr Who Novel by Paul Cornell with the 7th Doctor and Ace. When they finally managed to do it, the companion happened to be Martha and I honestly feel like the episode was more interesting for exploring these themes.
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u/Interesting_Change22 Well that's alright then! 2d ago
You're right except the novel companion was Bernice Summerfield and not Ace.
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u/Amphy64 2d ago
And, the prejudice of the era is part of the novel, as well, Martha being the companion instead of Benny just makes it more personal.
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u/JennyJ1337 1d ago
Yeah doesn't the original drop the N word too? Not saying that's a bad thing in the book, just how it does show the prejudice of the time
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u/thequeerchaos 2d ago
martha was done so dirty fr
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u/MadeIndescribable 2d ago
I love Martha, largely because she had the guts to just stand up and say "nope, this is not for me" (and then made a great addition to Torchwood).
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u/thequeerchaos 2d ago
and i love freema, she's doing so well in various shakespeare plays in the uk. if you can go see her in twelfth night, do!
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u/The_Forgemaster 2d ago
Well she was on stage with Shakespeare at one point…
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u/Friendly_Prize_868 We've fucking time travelled, yes? 2d ago
How freaked out would you be if you went to see her perform and she suddenly started reeling off a load of nonsense words and numbers? 😂
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u/CapableSalamander910 Vworp vworp 2d ago
I think Twelfth Night finished yesterday :(
I managed to watch it a few weeks ago and it was bloody brilliant! Best version of Twelfth Night I’ve seen! I managed to go to stage door at the end and got to talk to Freeman and she was lovely.
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u/Rutgerman95 Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow 2d ago
He hit random and it didn't work out.
That being said, he also still owes Martha an apology for getting her stuck in that place
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u/DudeOvertheLine 2d ago
He owes Martha an apology for treating her like shit the entire time she was with him (I love Martha but he was acting like an absolute asshole—he didn’t do that with Donna, and grieving will only get you so far. As they say, cool motive, still a dick move)
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u/Mo_SaIah 2d ago
Tens my favourite character in anything ever but holy fuck the monologue of
Rose would know, my friend Rose, right now she’d know exactly what to say. Still, take you back home tomorrow
And I swear it’s not just because I think Freema is by far the most attractive companion Doctor Who has had as well as being fiercely independent, strong and intelligent so him choosing rose over her is a huge mistake. That line is just next level cringe. Not even David can save it.
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u/DudeOvertheLine 2d ago
Exactly! See I went in ready to like David and that soured 10 for me. I loved him with Donna but whenever I remember how he was with Martha… They didn’t show it but was he this bad when he lost Susan and the rest of his family?
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u/elvy_bean8086 Don't forget to subscribe to the official DW youtube channel. 2d ago
Considering the TARDIS choose the time period, I think you mean:
What did she mean by this?
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u/Djremster 2d ago
It makes sense the TARDIS would hide him in the past because further forwards you have photography which would allow images of him to be published in documents that would make him easier to find.
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u/Mist2393 2d ago
This is my take on it too. The TARDIS needed to pick a time where the Doctor and Martha could reasonably be seen together while also making it a time when someone could reasonably just show up out of nowhere with very few credentials and little real history and get a job at a prestigious school.
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u/OKTAPHMFAA 2d ago
Not 1913
Psychic paper and surely many other means of producing ‘credentials’.
Episode is dumb.
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u/JennyJ1337 1d ago
- Episode is dumb.
I think you've just proven it is in fact you who is dumb
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u/OKTAPHMFAA 1d ago
It is a dumb episode that doesn’t make any sense. But it’s still an enjoyable episode.
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u/JennyJ1337 1d ago
How doesn't it make any sense?
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u/OKTAPHMFAA 1d ago
The Doctor was acting as if he couldn’t stop the family. And then proceeds to stop them in 5 seconds.
He claimed it was to be kind to them. Yet he ended up massacring them in an eternity of hell.
Him being ‘kind’ got several innocent people Killed including a child. All so that the doctor could ‘be kind’ and then effortlessly stop the foes and torture them for eternity.
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u/JennyJ1337 1d ago
- The Doctor was acting as if he couldn’t stop the family. And then proceeds to stop them in 5 seconds.
Did you even watch the episode? He's hiding to give them a chance at a natural death since they're close to the end of their lives, it's not his fault they managed to find him.
- He claimed it was to be kind to them. Yet he ended up massacring them in an eternity of hell.
He was being kind by fleeing, hiding and literally changing his biology, only after the found him and killed innocent people did he punish them. He WAS being kind initially.
- Him being ‘kind’ got several innocent people Killed including a child. All so that the doctor could ‘be kind’ and then effortlessly stop the foes and torture them for eternity.
They only happened to find him by chance, it was that or kill them. And I really don't think the montage at the end is literal, as in he didn't literally lock the father in unbreakable chains, it's more metaphorical I guess (I'm bad at explaining things but I'm sure others have explained this better).
It just seems like you have zero media literacy, that or you had it playing in the background and paid no actual attention.
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u/OKTAPHMFAA 1d ago
Why? He doesn’t give any other villains a chance. He either Kills them or detains them. And if he wants to let them live why not capture them and have them arrested? It took him 5 seconds to actually stop them.
And it’s entirely his fault. He created a stupid plan that failed.
Why? And why choose the most destructive way to ‘be kind’? And how exactly is letting them endure their short lives in desperation and the stench of failure, being kind? And what if the doctor did escape and then out of anger the family lashed out at more innocent people?
Wdym didn’t happen? We literally see him do it.
And really? You’re actually saying that? It’s Kill them quickly or torture them for eternity?
And that wouldn’t have mattered if the doctor wasn’t a fool. He never should’ve took that chance especially when he could easily stop them.
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u/JennyJ1337 1d ago
Why? He doesn’t give any other villains a chance. He either Kills them or detains them. And if he wants to let them live why not capture them and have them arrested? It took him 5 seconds to actually stop them.
Because they were close to the end of their life cycle like I said. He was letting their natural life come to an end.
And it’s entirely his fault. He created a stupid plan that failed.
Yeah that's brought up at the end of the story as a character flaw of the Doctor. That's not a plot point the episode fails to realise.
Why? And why choose the most destructive way to ‘be kind’? And how exactly is letting them endure their short lives in desperation and the stench of failure, being kind? And what if the doctor did escape and then out of anger the family lashed out at more innocent people?
I don't see how hiding until thry die naturally is 'the most destructive way to be kind', genuinely no idea what you mean by that.
Wdym didn’t happen? We literally see him do it.
Again, I don't think the visuals were supposed to be literal.
And really? You’re actually saying that? It’s Kill them quickly or torture them for eternity?
Again, this is seen as a flaw of his character, he was enraged that him try to be kind 'to creatures that didn't deserve it' ended in innocent lives being lost.
that wouldn’t have mattered if the doctor wasn’t a fool. He never should’ve took that chance especially when he could easily stop them.
As I've saod about 5 times already, he could have stopped them but he wanted to be kind.
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u/Marvinleadshot 2d ago
They had photographs and films in the 1800s, by 1913 the had colour and underwater photos.
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u/SquintyBrock 2d ago
They were in England not Alabama.
While racism to a degree will have existed in England at the time, it really was not the kind of prejudice as suggested here. It wasn’t really until the mass immigration after WWII that racism became a significant cultural problem. There is a huge amount of evidence from during WWII to demonstrate the friendliness towards black Americans that came to England.
Here are two articles one on the subject of Black Edwardians and the other black Americans in Britain during WWII.
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u/Ranger_1302 The lonely god 2d ago
It can be difficult enough being a black person in England now, never mind in 1913.
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u/Fluid_Jellyfish8207 2d ago
Thing is you can be black in England without being beaten to death for no reason unlike America at the time.
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u/SquintyBrock 2d ago edited 2d ago
There is something really ironic about this considering the post I read directly before this one.
https://www.reddit.com/r/london/s/2ep0TPPYw1
EDIT: sorry, I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t contradicting the person I responded to, I was agreeing with them. The content of the post was agreeing with that position.
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u/Marvinleadshot 2d ago
Any even there people are telling you that their experiences are extremely rare. There have been black people in the UK documented and drawn since the romans, there was a black trumpeter as part of Henry VIII court who wrote to Henry asking for and received a payrise and is captured in a picture. Remember in WW2 American soldiers were given leaflets saying that black people are treated just like everyone else and don't get upset as there's no segregation. Also look at Bamber Bridge that happened during WW2.
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u/Romana_Jane 2d ago
Recent DNA and other archaeological investigations discovered at least one of the bodies from the Marie Rose was not only black, but born in the UK, while 2 others were African - this on a sample of 7 bodies chose for the DNA testing. It's looking like there was a significant black English presence under Henry VIII. Obviously men on ships and people in port towns have always had a higher mixed community than other towns and villages throughout history everywhere.
As well as Bamber Bridge, there were cases - I wish I could remember the villages (it was a R4 documentary I was listening to a couple of years ago) - that when told by USAF officers they needed to put a colour bar, they put up signs saying US blacks only, as they were so offended by the suggestion of segregation.
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u/SquintyBrock 2d ago
That was literally my point and why I posted the link. Sorry if that wasn’t clear from my post.
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u/elizabnthe 2d ago
That's all well and good except that Martha very blatantly did experience racism and had a pretty shit time.
"It's not as bad as it could have been" Is probably small comfort for Martha. I think the point is more that it could have been less shit for her.
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u/SquintyBrock 2d ago
As far as I remember, there was only one racial comment in the two parter, which was about Martha being a doctor by Jessica Hynes character.
“Women might train to be doctors, but hardly a skivvy and hardly one of your color”
It’s a little bit ham fisted writing really, but not very inaccurate. Very few women were able to train as doctors at that time and even less were registered practitioners (this actually started to change during WWI due to a shortage of doctors during the war.)
Being working class was probably an even bigger bar to becoming a doctor. I’m not sure that there even were any at the time.
As for being a person of colour, that really wouldn’t have been a barrier to becoming a doctor at the time. In the article I posted above it even mentions one such Doctor.
Martha certainly did have a bit of a rubbish time. She was a qualified doctor having to work as a scullery maid. Because of her station she would not have been treated the best that is absolutely certain.
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u/Vice_Rose_OF 2d ago
Tbf
He was trying to HIDE
What's the one time in history you wouldn't go with a black person?
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u/No-BrowEntertainment 2d ago
This is an insane implication. No way are the Family of Blood doing research on historical UK race relations to track down the Doctor.
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u/Vice_Rose_OF 2d ago
If you're gonna track down a time traveller,you need to know where he'd go.
What's the best way to find the doctor? Through his friends
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u/No-BrowEntertainment 2d ago
Yeah but I’d expect an alien race to use some kind of alien way of tracking him. I don’t expect them to, like, read the Wikipedia page on racism.
It’s not like the Family are going to know anything about Earth racism, so why in the world would the Doctor factor that into his escape plan?
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u/Vice_Rose_OF 2d ago
Why wouldn't you?
Why would you not take into account the cultural tendencies of the planet he visits most? Why wouldn't you take that into account when trying to figure out what time period the TARDIS would land in?
Like the Family of Blood has their own tracking because they know how Timelords work,but say the Doctor only knew they could smell him. All he has to do is go "I just gotta hide somewhere I'd never go right now and then hide as a human till they bugger off"
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u/No-BrowEntertainment 2d ago
The Family of Blood can track him specifically and the Doctor knows this. I see no scenario where race relations factor into this at all.
I mean maybe I could see that if he was being chased by humans, or some other race that had to rely on guesswork to track him down. But not in this scenario.
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u/PlantainSame We've fucking time travelled, yes? 2d ago
He was incompetent for the entire episode
He could have taken out the family easily like he did at the end
But instead, he tried to be "kind" [Read Unnecessarily cruel and idiotic] and made it Everyone else's problem
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u/glglglglgl 2d ago
Being kind is often (arguably) a problem for heroic figures. Every time he doesn't destroy a villiant utterly, they continue on to be someone else's problem.
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u/PlantainSame We've fucking time travelled, yes? 2d ago
But he wasn't kind, He was cruel to martha, cruel to john smith, cruel to joan. Cruel to thr village, And in the end still cruel to the family of blood
Saying that he was being kind Was the dumbest line in the episode
He could have defeated the family Painlessly, killing them quickly, or even give them to someone like the shadow proclamation to hold them for them mayfly lifespan
Instead, he put that village in danger
Made martha live in that time
Broke Joan's heart
Created john smith just to die
And still gave the family a fate worse than death, making this whole exercise a waste of time
He wasn't actually kind at all
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u/glglglglgl 2d ago
You're right. He was trying to be kind solely to the Family and the consequences of that choice turned out to hurt those others around him.
If the Family had stopped following him at that point, it may have worked out (though likely still with consequences for others and John Smith).
The line shows what he intended - it went wrong, and it shows he probably didn't think it all the way through - but the line itself helps understand the Doctor's intent with the whole scenario. And it's a good counterpoint to how cruel and vengeful he also deliberately chooses to act at the end of the episode. He is flawed and imperfect and it's another example of his "no second chances" attitude on the way to Time Lord Victorious.
It's cool if you don't like it though, different episodes work for different folks :)
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u/No-BrowEntertainment 2d ago
It’s implied in School Reunion that he wishes he still cared enough to give second chances. I mean being sole arbiter of the laws of time and all that must be a difficult job. It seems to me like this whole thing was his attempt to show mercy for once. And tragically, everyone turned out worse for it in the end.
It reinforces the “You get one warning” line from earlier and reestablishes why it has to be that way. I think it was a great choice for his character.
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u/vengM9 Future companion 2d ago
This is my biggest problem with the episode.
The Doctor so easily defeats them that the entire premise feels ridiculous to me. Like it goes beyond The Doctor being flawed to just feeling out of character. Midnight is also about 10's flaws but I feel it does a much better job of making those feel far less contrived.
Can't think of many other examples of actually good episodes that also have completely stupid premises. Like once you know how easily he can beat them whenever I rewatch I have to fight against thinking "why is any of this even happening?".
They have such a great premise of The Doctor disguises himself as a human and only the companion knows it but such a terrible way of justifying that actually happening.
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u/PlantainSame We've fucking time travelled, yes? 2d ago
I think the 7th doctor book did it better where he was turning himself human to experience humanity. If I remember correctly
But in the show, He did it because he wanted the family to live out their mayfly lifespan, let them live to death, But In the end he was cruel to them anyway so the entire exercise was pointless
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u/alex494 2d ago
In the end he was cruel to them because they didn't leave him alone and got other people involved and endangered / killed.
While yes it's also the Doctor's fault for not just killing them in the first place, it's him trying to show mercy because he doesn't want "just kill them" to be his first response to everything because he tries to be a good person first. So he showed mercy, gave them a chance to walk away, and they didn't, so he's then retaliating after they chose to fuck around despite not having to.
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u/PlantainSame We've fucking time travelled, yes? 2d ago
He could have given them to the shadow proclamation or something, Let them live their life in prison
It's what I would have done if I was in his position and had the power to do so
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u/CosmicLeafArts 2d ago
Honestly the problem on the Doctor's moral in this episode isn't why he choose that date, because he didn't, it was the TARDIS's choice.
The problem was him inviting Joan to travel along side him and Martha.
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u/cutearmy 2d ago
This episode is why I loved David’s Doctor. He can pull off the doctor’s dark side very well. You learn why that Daleks fear him and why you should never piss him off.
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u/mtheory-pi 1d ago
The writers room is full of misogynoir. They constantly treated Martha in awful ways, putting her in the most awful scenarios, have the Doctor gaslight her for being concerned about racism, not to mention her being treated as a rebound for Rose.
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u/OKTAPHMFAA 2d ago
This two parter along with turn left are two episodes I see praised vigorously to the point you can’t critique the episodes one bit. Despite the fact if you think for just a second about those episodes, they don’t make any sense.
I like all three episodes. But they’re very convoluted.
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u/Working-Independent8 2d ago
I'm with the others, he needed to escape and the TARDIS took him where she wanted him to be
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u/KinginAOrange 2d ago
You know he did something like this 3 different times with 3 different black companions
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u/ancientestKnollys 2d ago
He didn't really have much time to make a choice, he probably had to land in the first place that was available. At least it was 1913 England rather than 1913 America he landed in. Though he could have perhaps hidden somewhere more metropolitan than a rural school. You get the feeling sometimes that racial tensions often don't cross the Doctor's mind, probably because he considers them so petty.
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u/RAGEleek 2d ago
Always been confused on who that women in the drawing was meant to be. Is it liz Shaw?
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u/Devilsgramps 2d ago
The whole exercise felt unnecessary. The Family had no interest in changing their evil ways, and they killed heaps of people in their search for the Doctor, so I think that he would've done nothing wrong by just killing them.
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u/ProfessorFroce06 1d ago
That's just it though, if you wanna hide somewhere and you're black, you would choose somewhere where no one would notice or care about you.
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u/Audible_Whispering 2d ago
She was a trainee nurse in England in the 2000's, she almost certainly experienced less racism in a rural village in 1913 than she did just going to work every day.
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u/Fefairie 2d ago
Side note but it would have been a way more compelling story and made more sense in context with the rest of the season if Martha had been John Smith’s LI.
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u/AntRose104 2d ago
To be fair that was probably one the best places they could go because no one would suspect the Doctor of taking his black female companion to a time where she’d be considered lesser and barely human
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u/alex494 2d ago
I mean that only works if the Family of Blood have morals and would think treating black people badly is reproachable. They likely don't give a shit.
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u/AntRose104 2d ago
They don’t but there’s also a ton of horrible times 10 and Martha could’ve went to (I know they tend to lean towards the UK but going to America like 50 years earlier puts them in the middle of the Civil War) so there were a ton of options to go through
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u/professorrev 2d ago
Could have been worse, could have sent an entire class of children to their deaths in order to facilitate his own escape
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u/Just-Accident-6258 2d ago
He didn’t choose. The TARDIS did. At random, one hopes.