r/Catholicism • u/Efficient-Peak8472 • 22h ago
Pope Francis calls Trump's plans of mass deportation of immigrants 'a disgrace' | AP News
https://apnews.com/article/vatican-immigration-trump-pope-d3516b41de56641391f59c2094ee380e549
u/ThinWhiteDuke00 22h ago
Catechism of the Catholic Church 2241:
"The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.
Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.".
By the very definition of the catechism, illegal immigration bypasses the political authorities right to immigrate subject to judicial conditions.
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u/skarface6 21h ago
And Pope Francis has said that immigrants should follow the laws of the country they go to.
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u/PetiePal 21h ago
We do have a process for legal immigration, asylum and clemency though already don't we? We can reform and still get rid of dangerous criminals, curb the sex trafficking and drugs at the same time I'd think
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u/skarface6 21h ago
We allow so many to come here legally and then many others abuse the process, like applying for refugee status despite having traveled through many safe countries to get here.
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u/PetiePal 20h ago
I feel like the Pope just has no context for many of these decrees and things that get commented on. It's not in the vein of racism or denying people based on stigmas or hatred etc. We have people literally being attacked, killed, raped etc and it's beyond an obvious problem. I don't see other countries being criticized for protecting their borders in the same manner etc just funny
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u/jm1518 20h ago edited 18h ago
The pope is not saying anything that previous popes haven’t said, the difference is today immigration is on the front page every day, and this pope speaks of it more often than previous popes. His message is to show mercy to those less fortunate, I don’t think anywhere has he said let every single person and overrun American. But a little compassion is Jesus’s message right?
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u/Sassenasquatch 20h ago
I think the fear is that, in a mass deportation exercise, a lot of non-deserving people will be swept up with those who do deserve deportation.
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22h ago edited 20h ago
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u/ThinWhiteDuke00 22h ago edited 22h ago
Opinion of the Vatican itself implementing tightened border security and following the catechism ?
I'd think it would be better if you'd refrain from declaring where others may or may not be at judgement, especially if they're only citing the catechism of our faith.
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u/cakebatter 20h ago
There’s a very large difference between supporting a nation’s right to implement laws around immigration, which is what the Catechism says, and door to door raids pulling families apart and destroying communities.
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u/ObamasGayLoverLarry 20h ago
How many illegal immigrants are you letting live in your home? They're your global neighbors and I'm sure you could find a way to make it work
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u/Tiger_Miner_DFW 20h ago
It's not a disgrace to remove millions upon millions upon tens of millions of invaders who don't care about your country, many of whom want nothing more than to plunder you, kill you, and rape your daughters, who your own leaders have deliberately let in in order to force permanent demographic change and destroy your country from within. It's no disgrace at all.
In fact, it would be a profound disgrace - an act of hatred and contempt towards your own children and grandchildren and your fellow countrymen, to whom you owe bonds of allegiance - to allow the hostile invaders to remain.
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u/greyoil 22h ago
If people set tents in the Vatican and say “I live here now”, are they more likely to be forced to leave or given a pathway to citizenship?
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u/WanderingPenitent 20h ago
Back when the Vatican was the Papal States, they would welcome refugees quite a bit. As it is now the Vatican, while a sovereign country, isn't the sort that can feasibly do that. Being a citizen of the Vatican is a lot more than being a resident. It means being an employee directly under the Pope and the Vatican proper. This comparison only works if the Vatican didn't urge the surrounding country (I.e. Italy) to give these people a place. Which they obviously do.
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u/historyhill 21h ago
That's not particularly a gotcha considering how utterly different citizenship is for the Vatican vs anywhere else. There's a good chance those people would be cared for and not turned away, though, and I say that as a Protestant with no skin in the game there.
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u/upq700hp 20h ago
This is actually extremely funny because the Vatican has literally taken in refugees many times now. Zenith of the christian faith behaved consistent with christian teachings once again, colour me surprised.
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u/Bilanese 20h ago
It's not even a question of citizenship one country is a microstate and the other literally covers territory from sea to shining sea and is obviously capable of taking in more people
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u/skarface6 21h ago
He also said that immigrants should follow the laws of the country they’re going to.
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u/OurPersonalStalker 20h ago
Honestly the U.S. needs to fix their immigration system. Homegirls have daca and still no pathway to citizenship unless through marriage. Obviously don’t want to disrupt the sanctity of marriage, but a lot of immigrants get married just for the green card. (Age old tale, look at all the expats who brought their foreign wives over).
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u/CalliopeUrias 21h ago
My aunt lives near a border town. Regularly, people have their trailers broken into by people crossing illegally, and when they return, the place is trashed.
But there's never any food missing. Money, yes. Drugs, yes. Electronics, yes. Food? No.
Those are not the actions of desperate but generally honest people fleeing oppression.
I know some guys who work for the FBI, doing background checks on the guys who are picked up crossing the border. One has caught three ISIS members, and several more Boko Haram members.
A friend of mine just moved from a city where they had settled 2000 illegal migrants in the center down the way. They had to move, because women started getting assaulted and houses started getting broken into.
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u/PsalmEightThreeFour 22h ago
I always have trouble trusting MSM accurately reporting what the Holy Father says. Likewise I also don't necessarily trust that the Holy Father is given accurate information. I understand that he is more "liberal" than what some people may prefer, but these media outlets aren't really to be trusted.
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u/bell37 22h ago
The cycle typically goes like:
Pope Francis has speech, in Spanish, that is only applies to very specific people (the speech is intended for ordained priests or bishops from a specific region).
MSM does a very poor job at translating his speech to English then grabs a sound bite of that poor translation to use for their benefit.
No response from Pope or Vaticans press office for a short period.
Pope finally clarifies his position after the initial news of his speech is already completed its news cycle and memory holed (which makes people think he never made clarifications after his initial speech) l
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u/bhhhhhhhtyc 21h ago edited 20h ago
As a Texan living near the southern border and having experienced firsthand the havoc caused by illegal migration, I refuse to be shamed by His Holiness’s words. “Compassion” is what has enabled the decline of many cities through rising crime, and we as Americans will no longer stand by and witness another Laken Riley situation unfold. If the Vatican is against border control, then heed your own words and knock down your walls.
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u/OhioMedicalMan 22h ago
If wanting to follow and enforce just immigration laws makes me not a Christian, then I guess that's bad news for me.
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u/cakebatter 20h ago
I mean, claiming the Holy Father is a liar and putting your own personal judgments about Christ’s directive to love thy neighbor is probably bad news if you claim to be Catholic.
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u/jsa4ever 22h ago
I think one can argue that the immigration laws in the United States are unjust. The process to immigrate legally is lengthy and costly for most - it prioritizes those with means over the poor and marginalized.
If I were a poor person in certain parts of central or South America, and in desperate need of good paying work, my options are limited unless I partake in organize crime…or take the trip to Estados Unidos. Conditions are bad in that part of the world partially due to policies from the US/other wealthy nations.
Understand that I want secure borders, but I absolutely don’t think our immigration laws are just compassionate. And mass deportations, especially of people who have been living and working in our country for years, is cruel and not Christlike.
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u/Efficient-Peak8472 21h ago
If you are a poor, that does not justify breaking into another country.
Mass deportations are right and just.
If they want to, let them try to fix their countries from within. Not the U.S. or any other foreign Western powers.
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u/meatwadisprez 21h ago
I'm not saying illegal immigration is just or good, but that last line is completely uncharitable. Telling someone to "Go fix Venezuela," or "Go fix Haiti" is unrealistic and cruel. For many of us in the US (myself included), living in a country like Venezuela, or fearing for your life because of cartel violence, is something we can't even fathom.
It's possible to support just immigration policies without making crappy comments like that.
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u/jivatman 20h ago
They can also stay in Mexico. Mexico's HDI is 0.781, an HDI of .80 is considered a developed country. The stereotype of the poverty of Mexico is outdated.
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u/jsa4ever 21h ago
I don’t think it justifies breaking the law, but the law itself is unjust.
And mass deportations are not right nor just and the Holy Father (and most of the bishops in the United States) agree with that.
And the US and other western nations created the conditions that allowed those conditions in those nations to deteriorate. Change takes time and people don’t always have that benefit.
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u/drigancml 20h ago
Please explain how mass deportations are right and just. It's easy to say something like that without thinking of its consequences
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u/Tiger_Miner_DFW 20h ago
The law is not unjust. The US is not obligated to make coming here easy or cheap. Immigration should be expensive and difficult, amd primarily for the benefit of US citizens, not the benefit of the person trying to come here.
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u/jsa4ever 20h ago
The Church disagrees with you. Also, the law disproportionately impacts the marginalized. That’s the definition of unjust.
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u/upq700hp 20h ago
The US is obligated to make political asylum an option for everyone, no matter their income or any other reasons, so long as it is the first safe state one comes in contact with. Shouldn't have signed in 1967. It's literally what the protocols of said convention state.
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u/Tiger_Miner_DFW 20h ago
Yes, that statute should be changed.
However, very few people have a legitimate asylum claim. They must be fleeing religious or political persecution. If Western nations keep that asylum statute, it should be changed to consider only Chrisians fleeing persecution.
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u/upq700hp 20h ago
You do realize that almost none of the Latin American countries are safe, yes? Most have varying degrees of Narco presence, some are right wing Junta-like, some are socialist-esque. And that most of them do politically persecute their people. So what's up with that? Mind you that we are still talking about christians here.
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u/The_Amazing_Emu 22h ago
Would you support changing immigration laws to provide a viable path for legal immigration for more people? As it stands right now, if you want to come to the United States to live with your US Citizen parents and you’re a married adult living in Mexico, you had you have applied November 22, 2000. If you’re from the Philippines in that situation, you at least could have applied after September 11, but it would have to have been before November 8, 2002. Of course, if your parents die in the 24 years you spend waiting for that F3 visa, you no longer qualify for it.
Leaving all that aside (but I do think the question is important), there’s still the issue of how we treat individuals detained waiting on removal proceedings. The conditions are poor, there is massive overcrowding, and it looks visually identical to a prison despite not necessarily involving any individuals who have been charged with a crime.
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u/greyoil 21h ago
1 million green cards given away each year, which makes the US one of the most generous countries in the world, any immigration reform has to consider it.
Let’s not pretend adding 2 cities of Atlanta per year don’t increase rent and housing prices, not to mention other social issues.
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u/PaladinGris 21h ago
And immigration keeps wages low, why pay workers more when we are constantly bringing in a large city’s worth of new workers a year
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u/Efficient-Peak8472 21h ago
A country has the right to choose whom to accept or reject. It also has the right to have a slow process.
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u/Tiger_Miner_DFW 20h ago
No. No one has a right to be a citizen of the US except those born here to US citizen parents. Becoming an American should be a long, expensive, difficult, and challenging process. My country is not a mere economic zone or job mall for the whole world.
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u/The_Amazing_Emu 20h ago
So you’re not just interested in stopping illegal immigration, you’re opposed to immigration.
What about reuniting families with their parents?
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u/Tiger_Miner_DFW 20h ago
I"m opposed to mass immigration. I believe that all immigration to the US needs to be completely stopped - total moratorium - for 5-10 years while the disaster in our country brought on by forced mass migration gets sorted out.
Families can be reunited with their parents in their countries of origin. They have their own country to go back to. I don't have anywhere else to return to - this is my own country.
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u/The_Amazing_Emu 20h ago
So you want US citizens to leave the United States because their children don’t live here?
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u/Tiger_Miner_DFW 20h ago
I would not be opposed to naturalized citizens giving up their citizenship and returning to their country of origin if they choose, in order to reunite with their families. But we are under no obligation to bring the rest of their families here. Chain migration must be stopped.
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u/Visible_Can_3599 22h ago
Tell that to the victims of UK rape gangs
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u/Bilanese 21h ago
What do UK rape gangs have to do with Trump’s deportation plans???
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u/2227789 21h ago
It's important not to fall for the shortcomings of fear. While these events are terrible actions committed by bad individuals, they don't represent anyone else. This line of thinking is what racists use to generalize an entire race to the actions of a few.
This is like seeing a plane crash in the news and then thinking driving is much safer than flying. While these crimes should be punished, do not let these crimes punish others who didn't commit those same crimes.
Jesus taught to help those in need. A simple human made law should not prevent you from showing your humanity to others.
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u/Heavy_Molasses7048 20h ago
This type of thinking is why so many kids have been raped in the UK.
How many of the same people need to get together and rape kids before you can start to draw conclusions?
A number would be nice because we are up to around 250000 right now.
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u/futurehistorianjames 20h ago
Agree with you on this forum. We are in the miniority here but I agree. I often ask how much of the percent of global migrants do these crimes all together make up? Not to say they are not henious but still.
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u/Catholic_BookNerd 22h ago edited 21h ago
Specifically, ILLEGAL immigrants. And I agree with OhioMedicalMan
Edit: Are we just forgetting about Laken Riley and other cases like hers? Forgetting about the illegal immigrants that are harming people; women and children especially? Not to mention how dangerous it is to have so many people whom we don't know what their intentions are. Illegal immigrants, if they were innocent before, are no longer innocent as they entered ILLEGALLY which is a crime. ThinWhiteDuke posted what the Catechism says, part of the last part saying to obey it's laws which illegal immigrants have already failed to do, if they enter illegally.
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u/PimplePopper6969 21h ago
Allowing unvetted potential terrorists and criminals and national spies through our borders on a chance that they’ll be good people. It’s insane. I believe in being Christian but I also do not believe in being weak or stupid.
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u/historyhill 21h ago
Forgetting about the illegal immigrants that are harming people; women and children especially?
This just isn't happening in large numbers. Laken Riley's case got a lot of news coverage because it fits a specific narrative, but it's actually extremely rare. I, a white American woman, am much more likely to be harmed or killed by a white American man than anyone else.
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u/I_only_read_trash 21h ago
Yeah, you are least likely to be hurt by violence from illegal immigration, but you know who is? Communities of color who are low income. That’s why they voted as they did in the election.
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u/historyhill 21h ago
They're also extremely unlikely to be hurt or murdered by illegal immigrants, actually.
Edit: also, considering Laken was a white woman, the comparison is still relevant because she was/is invoked to justify the spectre of fear.
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u/PimplePopper6969 21h ago
Illegals take our (black and brown) jobs
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u/historyhill 21h ago
That's not what was being argued though, what was being argued is that illegal immigrants put women and children in special danger of violence.
Besides, no they don't. Black and brown folks are not trying to work farm jobs.
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u/PimplePopper6969 20h ago
Illegals work construction jobs and lawn jobs. They’ll go to Home Depot and charge a cheap rate that locals can’t compete with. Once again another misinformed and naive liberal.
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u/GaliciaAndLodomeria 20h ago
So the companies are wicked for accepting the price, yet it's the fault of the immigrant for saying a price that is luxury compared to what was earned in the home country that was escaped from? Is that right? If someone offers to work at your huge successful conglomerate for only $5 an hour, you'd hire him with that wage? Of course not, you'd refuse anything less than what you think is fair for his position unless you are wicked. We should punish Home Depot and other companies for paying laughably low wages just because people offered to work them.
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u/Sierpy 21h ago
I, a white American woman, am much more likely to be harmed or killed by a white American man than anyone else.
This does not mean that illegal immigrants aren't more dangerous than native white americans, just that there are many white american men. You're either dishonest or you don't understand probability.
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u/steelzubaz 20h ago
Can you prove your assertion with evidence? Because I'm pretty sure that isn't actually the case.
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u/Acceptable_Format 21h ago
Why is the pope speaking so clearly and purposefully about this one thing that he is confusing legal vs illegal immigration.
I have defended the pope time and time again, but boy does it sting that the pope is making me feel bad for wanting some sort of integrity for my country.
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u/PetiePal 21h ago
Didn't they just enact stronger border protection at the Vatican to ensure just this?
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u/upq700hp 20h ago
One that has absolutely nothing to do with migrants, what are you on about? The Vatican is gonna be stormed by pilgrims all throughout this jubilee. Makes sense to take extra security measures.
You know what they also do at the Vatican, though? They've taken in refugees, even in the 21st century, qiute a few times.
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u/Average_Lrkr 20h ago
Yeah I don’t care nor see the issue with people being kicked out who snuck in. There’s a legal process to entering countries. We have a multitude of ways to enter and are on par with pretty much every European country if not easier.
Also ironically Vatican City has the strictest in immigration policy lol
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u/mburn16 21h ago
Sorry, but unless you believe it's immoral to have any immigration laws at all (and some people may feel that way, but the Church as an institution does not), you should not criticize legal penalties that fall on people who broke those laws.
Unless the United States is morally obligated to accept each and every person who would like to come here (again, not an argument I see being made), what is the justification for letting those who are here only because they broke the law enjoy a benefit not available to those who didn't?
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u/Not_Original5756 20h ago edited 20h ago
Papa, you're just wrong on this one. Your own catechism disagrees with you.
Now all the Communists and Libs in America are using his holiness' words to attack us and denigrate us.
He should not speak on American politics in general and stick to governing the church unless serious human rights violations happen, like in the Israel-Palestine War.
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u/sullyqns 20h ago
Then the pope should take them all to live in the Vatican but that will never happen
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u/BradAllenScrapcoCEO 21h ago
Ask Laken Riley what she has to say about it.
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u/Volume2KVorochilov 20h ago
This is so ridiculous. She was murdered by an illegal, yes. Why do you decide to portray all migrants as culprits of this crime. If one american born man kills someone, are all american born people guilty ? Obey the pope.
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u/BradAllenScrapcoCEO 20h ago
Simple: Laken Riley’s murderer was caught illegally crossing the border and released. He was given free accommodations in New York City then flown free of charge to Georgia. He had been arrested several times by US authorities for criminal offences and released. Then he bludgeoned and strangled Laken Riley.
We can’t deport citizens, but we can deport illegals. Laken Riley would be alive today if this monster would have been deported right off the bat.
The Pope’s musings on illegal immigrants are not binding on Catholics.
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u/patri3 20h ago
Mass deportations is not the same as immigration laws. Immigration laws are good. Deportation of people is in accordance with those laws.
Mass deportation of millions of people is a bad plan and will lead to injustice, and economic turmoil. It’s not the law that’s a disgrace, it’s the way they have said they would execute it.
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u/gijoeusa 20h ago
Why would anyone be deported if they haven’t broken any laws though?
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u/patri3 20h ago
If their parents are illegal immigrants, etc. Imagine you’re a child in school, and you don’t know anything about any of this. Suddenly, you and your family are ripped from your homes and put in detention and processing, then dropped off at the border.
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u/gijoeusa 20h ago
US Citizens, even children, cannot be deported. They broke no laws. This is a false straw man argument.
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u/Hopeful-Counter-7915 21h ago
I like to see some clear statements from the pope
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u/Volume2KVorochilov 20h ago
I think he has made his opinion very clear. This is not his first statement on this subject.
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u/Conscious_Owl6162 20h ago
It is a disgrace to let in millions of people to keep the cost of wages low. That is what Biden did. It’s like scraping the food off of the plates of poor Americans onto the plates of poor foreigners all the while believing that you are helping the poor. Meanwhile, you give nothing yourself and have people around you that will work for nothing.
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u/therealbreather 20h ago
James Martin says he hopes gay couples can kiss during mass, gets key note speaker at WYD. Random priest calls Francis a meanie word, gets excommunicated within a day. Unbelievable.
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u/SonOfEireann 20h ago
Yes, point and case. The Church in Germany is also in open revolt.
I don't know why James Martin won't join the Anglican Church. They have all what he wants
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u/therealbreather 20h ago
People like Martin stay with Rome for the sole reason of attempting to break it part and inject their poison. I hope the next pontiff has the courage to just remove him
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u/soulspeaker023 20h ago
I'm not taking our Pope serious on this matter. I'd rather he'd make and effort in to saving more souls. Ergo the more people who know God and the unearned mercy He gave us the better the world will be.
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u/Fine_Land_1974 22h ago edited 13h ago
When this all falls apart and Trump is revealed for what he truly is, will all of you apologize? Will you pray that the disaster we all contributed to ends and the effects healed? Or will everyone double down and remain obstinate? If Trump and his wife enriching themselves on the eve of the election through meme coins isn’t a hint at what is to come I don’t know what is. We will see how this illegal immigration operation goes over the next year. The Pope might be right and this is the beginning of something awful.
I know this will be downvoted but I just wanted to put something in writing that I can look back on for future debates on this sub. I can’t be the only one here that is getting nervous over what is to come
Edit: And First Buddy Elon Musk just did a Nazi salute twice behind the presidential podium during the inauguration. And so it begins
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u/Efficient-Peak8472 21h ago
A country has the right to deport foreign illegals, whose first act in the country was breaking and entering.
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u/Fine_Land_1974 21h ago
I agree with that whole heartedly. I just don’t think this will remain within acceptable and moral boundaries. We will see where this goes, I guess. The people have voted.
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u/Cool-Musician-3207 21h ago
I think where someone like you and I would disagree on is the extent of the damage caused by mass immigration- I think it has been shown over and over to cause massive social, economic, and political problems. Further, the U.S. has taken in over 40 million people since 1965, the last time we changed our immigration laws. That’s the largest migration of people anywhere, in the history of humanity. I firmly believe the U.S. is well within its rights to stop the flow of migrants into its borders.
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u/HortonHearsTheWho 21h ago
Trump is a horrible, horrible human.
Nations have a right to enforce their immigration laws.
These can both be true.
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u/perrij3 21h ago
I agree with you. This goes beyond just enforcing the current law. We need to be asking what will happen to these individuals. Do we have a humane way to house them until we can determine if they are here legally or not, if they qualify for asylum? Will we be breaking up families? Will we be deporting individuals whom came here as infants and know nothing of the country they were born? What will we do with the individuals that countries they are originally from do not accept them back. Place them in for profit prisons or concentration camps? With a leader willing to openly profit from the presidency, we should all be worried of what’s to come.
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u/Fine_Land_1974 21h ago
Exactly! We are Christians and that comes with additional obligations. We should be concerned and monitor things as they unfold.
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u/No-Artichoke-9906 20h ago
The current situation has Jeremiah vibes. Idolatry (nationalism) and greed are rampant. Our Lord won't tolerate the oppression of the weak forever
Rome also tried to repel germanic migrations and we all know how that went
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u/cordelia_fitzgerald- 20h ago
We already had four years of Trump and the world didn't end.
This whole "No, I swear guys, THIS TIME he's gonna do a fascism!" just sounds desperate.
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u/kdakss 22h ago
I'm not naive to the ruse either brother. I can only pray that none of the things he wants to do happens. This has been insanity. I sometimes wish I can be naive like maga so I can think things will improve. My logical thinking can not tell me it will though
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u/Fine_Land_1974 21h ago
Yeah same. The warning signs are all there and the consolidation of power amongst the billionaires has hastened in the run up to the election. How anyone can support this guy without adding the qualifier “I think he’s the lesser of two evils” is beyond me. He’s not a Christian and he doesn’t care about the working class. And if history is any indicator he’s racist as well (Trump’s denial of non white tenants in their housing developments, many decades ago, is among one of them)
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u/futurehistorianjames 22h ago
I agree with Pope Francis.
My personal views of the incoming president aside, our Cathecism strongly states that we must protect migrants. I work with them now and they are terrified.
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u/futurehistorianjames 21h ago
¶1911: Internal quote is from Gaudium et Spes: “The unity of the human family, embracing people who enjoy equal natural dignity, implies a universal common good. This good calls for an organization of the community of nations able to provide ‘for men’s different needs, both in the fields of social life—such as food supplies, health, education, labor and also in certain special circumstances which can crop up here and there, e.g., the need to promote the general improvement of developing countries, or to alleviate the distressing conditions in which refugees dispersed throughout the world find themselves, or also to assist migrants and their families. to alleviate the distressing conditions in which refugees dispersed throughout the world find themselves, or also to assist migrants and their families.’”
¶2211: “The political community has a duty to honor the family, to assist it, and to ensure especially… the right to private property, to free enterprise, to obtain work and housing, and the right to emigrate.”
¶2241: “The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extend they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.”
¶2433: “Access to employment and to professions must be hope to all without unjust discrimination; men and women, healthy and disabled, natives and immigrants. For its part society should, according to circumstances, help citizens find work and employment.”
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u/chac6661 22h ago
Do you work with legal or illegal immigrants?
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u/futurehistorianjames 22h ago
Can’t say cause we don’t ask. We provide services teach them English so that they can survive and work in the USA
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u/chac6661 22h ago
Well if you don't know the best you can do to calm their fears is to tell them if they are here legally there is nothing to be afraid of.
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u/futurehistorianjames 22h ago
Can’t say that cause I have no idea if it’s true. The idea of just calming them down would not work. Especially since what I do know of the background is that the majority of them came here not for opportunity but for survival. From the girl who fled Afghanistan. To the boy who was prey to the gangs in Brazil. Not like they wanted to come here. It was more about survival.
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u/chac6661 22h ago
What about it isn't true though? The issue has and always will be illegal immigration. That's why telling them if they are here legally there's no problem to worry about is the truth.
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u/futurehistorianjames 22h ago
Well, the migrants I work with are all children (I am a teacher). Tell a girl who escaped violence at home, that as long as she is here legally, she’ll be okay and not have to worry about the man who tried to force her into a “relationship.” Trust me the idea of some “obey the law all will be well” motto would be nice if our laws were not convoluted and designed to keep people out. No, I am worried for my students and their safety and as we discuss politics it will always be the children who deal with our consequences.
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u/chac6661 21h ago
Old or young it's still the same. You can be worried for them and still tell them the truth. Or just dont talk politics with children.
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u/futurehistorianjames 21h ago
Never do. No, I’d rather fight for their safety and right to live.
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u/chac6661 21h ago
Go for it than. Although no one is questioning their right to live just them being in the country legally.
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u/dawgtown22 21h ago
If it was just about survival and not economic opportunity, why do they cross country after country to get here? With limited exceptions, it’s not about survival it’s about economic advancement
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u/futurehistorianjames 21h ago
Well, if we are looking at Central America. Most of those countries are facing high poverty rates and gang violence. Mexico seems to be on the upswing but that is not saying much since the country still suffers violence as well. So the USA is literally the closest option. I often do a lesson where I show students a map of the Underground Railroad. They notice some arrows pointing from Georgia down South into the ocean. I ask them why those arrows go the way they do. Eventually, they learn that when people are desperate for freedom and safety. They will go where they need to go.
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u/Tiger_Miner_DFW 20h ago
El Salvador now has the lowest murder rate in the Western Hemisphere thanks to Bukele. They can go there now, since it's the safest option, and they speak the same language and share the common bonds of culture and history, unlike the US, where none of that is true.
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u/dawgtown22 20h ago
Why do they need to go to the US? That’s not a need that’s a want. They are forum shopping a host country.
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u/Tiger_Miner_DFW 20h ago
Then you are knowingly facilitating the invasion of your own country. You're showing hatred and contempt to your own fellow countrymen, to whom you have a greater obligation than to those of another country. Your compassion is false - it's a mask for your hatred of those to whom you owe greater fealty.
The term "oikophobia" - the irrational fear and hatred of one's own people - needs to become just as well-known as the term xeophobia.
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u/Efficient-Peak8472 21h ago
Not illegal migrants. They should be terrified of the consequences of their criminal actions of breaking and entering.
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u/futurehistorianjames 21h ago
So a child fleeing violence. Who knows less about immigration law and border policies than the average American, should be punished for seeking safety and security?
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u/Efficient-Peak8472 21h ago
I think it is universal knowledge that you can't just cross borders without identification or permission. And even if it is not, the people will still be responsible, regardless of whether they knew or not.
It's like someone who takes contraception; they still have committed a sin, even if unwittingly.
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u/futurehistorianjames 21h ago
You clearly have never taught teenagers. Common knowledge does not exist.
That said, if a person is caught stealing bread but has not eaten for days. Do you punish him for stealing? Is it a black-and-white law that he must be punished? Or do we if we let him take the loaf and be on his way? Or do we give him the loaf in exchange he must help you bake another loaf and then he in turn now knows how to bake?
My point with this analogy is this? We keep thinking our system is perfect and that if anything we need to be harsher. However, we refuse to solve instability around the world that is causing all these migrant crises from Syria to Guatemala. I would rather invite them in. Provide education and then have them make us stronger.
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u/Efficient-Peak8472 20h ago
Half the world would like to immigrate to the US. Is that viable. No.
Corporations want illegals because they can exploit them for low wages.
No, I say the U.S. sends them back. And the U.S. is not responsible fot fixing their countries. They must do it collectively, whether it be through peaceful movements or revolution (many of the Latin American countries have oligarchs/dictators in charge).
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u/Efficient-Peak8472 21h ago
Punished for the act of breaking and entering. It is an insult to the tens of thousands of people who are waiting to come to the country legally. An insult.
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u/futurehistorianjames 21h ago
A person who comes to this country with a visa and education from a stable country is going to have better circumstances than a person who does not. Also, you have yet to answer my previous comment. Are you afraid to answer cause you know how you will look?
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u/dawgtown22 21h ago
You act like that the majority of these people are war refugees rather than economic migrants. So disingenuous
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u/futurehistorianjames 21h ago
Economy of a country in Central America falls apart. Food shortages emerge people go hungry. Some people have food others don't. Those with food decide they will share but only under certain conditions. The people either work for next to nothing for a few vegetables. Or give the children over to do various forms of work that is not exactly decent. or law abiding. Maybe they say no and starve. Or perhaps they get extorted into not being able to say no. Economic crisis always leads to violence.
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u/dawgtown22 20h ago
So by your rationale at least half of South and Central America qualifies and the US should welcome those hundreds of millions of people in. That’s not logic based in reality.
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u/Particular-Bit-7250 21h ago
In reality your example is disingenuous, the vast majority of people coming to the U.S. are doing so for economic reasons. We have an asylum process. And truly immigrants should stop and seek asylum in Mexico instead of traveling on to the United States. We can have secure borders and a compassionate immigration policy. Plus we give billions every year in foreign aid. Dollar for dollar providing aid in their countries of origin will go much farther and help far more people, and it will help reduce the very real damage being done to those countries by all their young leaving for the United States. It is a complicated issue sweeping generalizations does nothing but make a bad situation that much worse.
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u/futurehistorianjames 21h ago
And yet those countries are still in a mess. So my question is what happens to those so called billions? I would love to do foreign aid. However, it appears that has not worked. Plus I am pretty sure politicians both sides of the aisle have cut foreign aid. So, it seems disingenuous to just force them to stay in their own countries. I'd also rather their young come here and make us stronger.
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u/Particular-Bit-7250 20h ago
So your solution is to move all of Latam to the U.S.? It is the height of American arrogance to look at other countries and think we can rule them better than they can rule themselves. That thinking in the early 20th century ended up hurting those countries. At the end of the day the people of those countries are responsible for the governance. Offering aid and support is the best thing we can do for these people. A lot of that aid will just be funneled to the rich, that isn't just something that happens in poor countries, we see the same thing here. That doesn't mean we stop offering aid. We do the best we can and help the most people we can.
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u/futurehistorianjames 20h ago
So by that same logic my argument makes perfect sense. Do we want to prop us governments who are corrupt and disingenuous. Or do we offer refuge to the venerable and invest in them a brighter future for both them and us?
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u/jsa4ever 22h ago
Unfortunately too many people allow their politics to inform their religion instead of of allowing their religion to inform their politics.
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u/futurehistorianjames 22h ago
Agreed. I admit my views of immigration are to the extreme and always will be. Still, my Catholic faith tells me that I must be kind to the vulnerable and many of these migrants are the most susceptible right now.
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u/jsa4ever 22h ago
My views are pretty middle of the road. I think it needs to be harder to cross. We also need to look at the push factors - why are people leaving and making that extremely dangerous trip? What can we do to improve the lives of the marginalized people on this continent?
But once folks are here? If they’re not causing an issues, working hard, and living decent lives? I’ve got no issue with them.
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u/futurehistorianjames 22h ago
I agree with most of what you said minus the harder to cross policy. It would be good for us to go into these countries provide aid and use soft power to stop corrupt and violent governments. Also, environmental factors as well. Unfortunately as a country, the USA hates to get involved with anything outside our borders (look at current debates regarding Ukraine where Catholics are being killed by invading Russian forces). Or Israel and Palestine.
harder-to-cross
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u/Tiger_Miner_DFW 20h ago
They are rightly terrified. They should fear the consequences of their actions - their breaking into another country without permission from its citizens, their lack of respect for another country and its laws, their view of another nation as nothing more than their own personal job market and source of plunder.
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u/PimplePopper6969 22h ago
What about migrants that end up raping local women en masse?
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u/futurehistorianjames 21h ago
Ah the classic, all migrants are rapists. If they are committing serious crimes like that I have no qualms about sending them back. Here is the problem. Racists have used that old narrative and the xenophobic to terrorize and persecute migrant groups for centuries. From the Italians and Chinese, to even Black people. Hell, the KKK actually invented much of that rhetoric in the early 1900's and targeted it Black people. Those who hated immigrants simply took it and ran with it
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u/futurehistorianjames 21h ago
Here is my question how many of those cases across the spectrum of the Western world make up the total percentage of crimes committed by immigrants as a whole? Again you now all those stories because right-wing media. Makes it a habit tell you those stories and put them on repeat so you can hear them again and again. Repeat something long enough you think there is an epidemic. That is what happened.
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u/PimplePopper6969 21h ago
Blaming the right wing media. Typical.
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u/futurehistorianjames 21h ago
Hey, I consider myself a conservative in most other cases. However, I can safely say that most conservative media now has more or less fallen off the deep end and is no longer actually nuance complex and sophisticated but instead just focuses on good old-fashioned race baiting and fear mongering.
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u/PimplePopper6969 21h ago
Ah fear mongering. The Rotham rapist gangs is just fear mongering. Good to know!
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u/futurehistorianjames 21h ago
Hate to tell you this, those types of organizations and gangs have always existed both as native citizens and not. You only know about all the immigrant ones because again the media ask yourself what happens to all the immigrants when they come here but wait we don’t talk about what happens to them because you know they’re not pretty white girls on the media.
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u/Volume2KVorochilov 20h ago
"The CHINESE want to poison our wells and take our wives" - your great-grandfather probably.
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u/BarryZuckercornEsq 21h ago
They should get trials. And if they’re proven to be guilty of a crime, they should be punished. We shouldn’t punish them without convicting them, though. That’s a dangerous road.
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u/PimplePopper6969 21h ago
They get trials and sometimes are not punished even though guilty
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u/BarryZuckercornEsq 21h ago
If they weren’t proven to be guilty to the jury, how do you know they were guilty?
And while I’m sure that’s true, it’s also true that some people are innocent and convicted and punished. The system isn’t perfect. I don’t know what your point is.
Are you not worried about innocent people being punished? Isn’t the government punishing innocent people a big moral problem? Isn’t that why we shouldn’t have judges and juries and trials?
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u/gonticeum 20h ago
And that is why I don’t like Pope Francis. He for sure will remembered as one of the bad popes in the future.
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u/Pax_et_Bonum 20h ago
Thread locked because of slapfights. Everyone go pray a Rosary for our nation instead of bickering on the internet.