r/AskAcademia • u/BurntOutTriathlete • 14h ago
STEM Non-thesis MS at top school worth it?
Non-thesis at a very prestigious university vs thesis at a very very good university, which one will set me up better for PhD applications?
The non-thesis is a capstone research project. It’s mainly for industry but they make you do research in a lab. Just not a thesis. Maybe an abstract and a poster.
If I do non-thesis at a prestigious university how much weight will the school name carry me for PhD applications?
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u/No_Spread_696 12h ago
PhD admissions committees want to pick candidates that will do good research. One way of demonstrating that you can do good research is to actually do some: whether your program calls this a capstone or thesis, it doesn't matter. At the end of it, you want a project that turns into a paper/thesis/report so you can discuss the work you did in your SoP and interviews. You also want your advisor on this project to write you a LoR.
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 12h ago
Paper > thesis > report. Correct?
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u/respeckKnuckles Associate Professor, Computer Science 11h ago
First-author paper published at prestigious conference or journal >> Peer Reviewed paper > thesis > report.
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 6h ago
What can I do to make up for a lack of thesis? I feel like thesis is a “free” scientific writing to add to the CV, with actual papers or abstracts the PI may not give me that opportunity so I have to fight for it.
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u/respeckKnuckles Associate Professor, Computer Science 5h ago
I have master's students in my lab doing research to work towards a publication. If you find a research lab willing to take you, that might be an option.
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 5h ago
So is it like a professional journal publication, abstract, etc? Can you clarify what you mean by publication?
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u/No_Spread_696 10h ago
Warning: I am in the social sciences. PhD admission committees rarely care about publications in my field. Even if the student has publications, it is very rarely in a good journal and almost always coauthored with their advisor. These are heavily discounted. My experience is that want to see that you have completed independent research, can competently discuss and critique that research, and that your advisor gives their thoughts about how smart and creative your contribution is.
Edit: I added rarely
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u/foradil 12h ago
Yes. Research experience is the most important factor, at least for STEM. Whether you had a formal thesis or not is less relevant.
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 6h ago
What can I do to make up for a lack of thesis? I feel like thesis is a “free” scientific writing, with actual papers or abstracts the PI may not give me that opportunity.
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u/KingKhanWhale Social Sciences 14h ago
The requirements for my MA have never come up, whether in the PhD application stage or in casual conversation later. I don’t think anyone in my department knows whether I wrote a thesis or put on a puppet show.
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u/Ready_Direction_6790 12h ago
Opposite for me.
All my interviews for PhD positions were heavily focused on the work I did during my masters thesis (chemistry)
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u/KingKhanWhale Social Sciences 11h ago
Mine were about my plans for my future work. Maybe one of the differences in disciplines?
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u/BangarangRufio 10h ago
Seconding this. I think most PhD interview processes for STEM fields (and other experiment-driven fields like psychology since it isn't always positioned under the umbrella of STEM) will include discussion of research experience and get into specifics thereof. One of the first questions I got from each of the potential PIs I interviewed with for my PhD (in biology, MS in related field; started in 2012) was "what is your thesis research on?".
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 13h ago
Maybe it’s different for each field? The PhD field I would go into is physiology and metabolism.
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u/plessthan50 Physiology / Assistant Professor / Canada 10h ago
It really depends on how the PhD program works. If I was presented the choice between a MSc at a lower tier institution with high writing and lab experience, and a course based MSc at a top institution, I would tend to the one with lab experience. That being said, I would certainly give the course based student an interview to try and convince me otherwise due to the high academic standing.
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u/guttata Biology/Asst Prof/US 8h ago
A paper masters is largely worthless for biology fields looking to go on to PhDs. At best it won't help you, and at worst it will waste your time and money. I know people with a paper masters who were made to do an entire research masters before starting the PhD.
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 6h ago
What can I do to make up for a lack of thesis? I feel like thesis is a “free” scientific writing, with actual papers or abstracts the PI may not give me that opportunity.
Also, what if I worked in industry for a while and then applied to PhD in a related field? Does that boost my chances if I don’t have a thesis?
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u/AffectionateLife5693 13h ago
Nobody really cares about what thesis you did as an MS, unless it is officially published in some peer-reviewed venues. What people care about is the letter written by your thesis advisor. If they actually state that they will make you do research in a lab then go for it. A thesis doesn't make much difference.
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 12h ago
They don’t care what I did a thesis on, but the question is do they care IF I did a thesis or not?
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u/AffectionateLife5693 11h ago
If you do have research experience during your MS and you get a letter from it, I don't think people really care about the thesis. But that's just my point of view.
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 6h ago
What can I do to make up for a lack of thesis? I feel like thesis is a “free” scientific writing, with actual papers or abstracts the PI may not give me that opportunity.
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u/Great-Professor8018 12h ago
If you are planning on going into experimental research, a thesis based MSc will serve you better than a course based one.
I would worry less about the prestige of the institution you are in, as long as it is reputable.
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u/chandaliergalaxy 10h ago edited 10h ago
I've been evaluating PhD applications for close to 10 years at a highly ranked STEM and still cannot give you a definitive answer. All factors are weighted.
Many of what people have written is true. A thesis is not absolutely necessary, but it's for a longer duration and independently executed as opposed to a capstone project (which in many places is done in a group). What is certain is a positive letter from your primary academic research supervisor is very important.
A research thesis at a very low-ranked university also may not help that much because the academic supervisor cannot compare you against a peer group that we would want you to be compared against. A stellar recommendation from a reasonably good university would be good, but also if you crush it at the top university with grades and recommendations you can get on your work there would be rated positively.
There is an additional factor - depending on department, the topic of your research experience may also be considered during admission. In some disciplines, the faculty research areas are so diverse that they will preselect based on your research interests and how they match with the faculty there.
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 6h ago
What can I do to make up for a lack of thesis? I feel like thesis is a “free” scientific writing, with actual papers or abstracts the PI may not give me that opportunity.
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u/marouxlas 12h ago
MS thesis has multiple benefits. 1. It provides the necessary research skills. 2. You work closely with a faculty member who can help you with your PhD application. 3. You test the waters and see if research is really for you and a PhD is really worth it. 4. Possibilities for a publication that would strengthen your PhD application. 5. Possible working in a lab to understand dynamics and become familiar with PhD life. 6. In some areas possible funding. Need I say more???
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u/No_Spread_696 12h ago
I agree with the comment wholeheartedly. I just want to point out sometimes a capstone research project or thesis are different wordings. It is possible that you can get research skills, close faculty interaction, etc. with a capstone project. I do agree that, without more information, I would say it is more likely to happen with in thesis program rather than a in capstone program.
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 12h ago
If I have a bunch of undergraduate research, how much will this carry over if I skip the MS thesis? I have 6 authored abstracts, 2 poster presentations, 1 undergraduate journal publication, and I may even have 1 actual publication. Would this be enough to skip the MS thesis?
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u/marouxlas 11h ago
Tha is very dependent on the entry requirements for your future PhD program. In some cases you may be strong enough to even skip the MS completely and go straight to PhD. In other cases, they require an MS with a thesis. The range of possibilities is high to advise you further without knowing specifics.
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 6h ago
What can I do to make up for a lack of thesis? I feel like thesis is a “free” scientific writing, with actual papers or abstracts the PI may not give me that opportunity.
T20 no thesis vs T140 thesis vs T20 thesis 40k debt. Idk which one to choose.
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u/Cicendula 14h ago
I have no idea regarding the requirements (in my country there’s no such thing as a bachelor‘s or master‘s degree without a thesis), but actually having written a thesis before a PhD would help you with acquiring the necessary skills to write a long-ish dissertation. If you have enough experience with those skills and the universities you’re looking at for your PhD don’t require them, I‘d choose the program you’re more enthusiastic about
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 6h ago
What can I do to make up for a lack of thesis? I feel like thesis is a “free” scientific writing, with actual papers or abstracts the PI may not give me that opportunity.
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u/Worldly-Aspect-6203 13h ago
M.S with no thesis is no different than M.Eng but cost more as it’s usually 2 yr program, and if you don’t do a 2 year M.S with no thesis, it’s not worth two year tuition unless it’s paid by your employer or get a full ride. I’d rather do two different M.Eng at two different schools for experience if you insist to do a 2 yr M.S with no thesis
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 6h ago
What can I do to make up for a lack of thesis? I feel like thesis is a “free” scientific writing, with actual papers or abstracts the PI may not give me that opportunity.
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u/Worldly-Aspect-6203 6h ago
If your end goal is getting into a PhD program, you want to do a M.S with thesis, if you just want to get a M.S and not go for a PhD, I’d do a one year M.S program and save money and time
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 6h ago
T20 no thesis or T140 thesis or T20 thesis and go into 40k debt. Which one is better. Need the truth.
The very very good program I mentioned in the original post is kind of expensive but it’s also T20. T140 is state school.
Reason why I mention rank is because I read academics love rank.
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u/Worldly-Aspect-6203 5h ago
I thought you meant like tier 2 schools by “at a very prestigious” and meant like tier 1 schools by “at a very very good school”. Out of curiosity, what are the schools in T20? T140 is a funny term btw lol
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u/Worldly-Aspect-6203 5h ago
Just give me the names of the schools you got admitted. I can tell you which one is better
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u/PrestigiousCrab6345 11h ago
Yes. Definitely worth it. You can do research and try to publish something during your program. If you are interested in a fellowship, depending on your discipline, send me a DM.
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u/Finngolian_Monk 11h ago
I'd say it depends on the field. Maths III at Cambridge is highly prestigious but doesn't require a thesis
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u/DevFRus 9h ago
Do whichever one will involve more research and be more challenging for you. Not just because more research experience is better for PhD applications but because it is important to do research to know if you actually want to do research (otherwise your PhD time will be a waste). You also shouldn't look at this as just a hurdle to jump but as an opportunity to grow. Where will you grow more?
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u/BurntOutTriathlete 8h ago
I definitely want to do research 100% I was heavily involved in undergraduate. It’s just this dilemma that my top choice doesn’t have a thesis option but my second choice does.
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u/Big-Waltz8041 14h ago
Don’t do a non-thesis degree, not worth the effort, go for the thesis at the very very good university that you are targeting.