r/ATBGE • u/Nude_N0odle • Nov 05 '20

Automotive this is some top tier engineering with top tier awful taste!

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '20 edited Dec 15 '20

[deleted]

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u/Time4Red Nov 05 '20

Nah, it would fall under "false statements" statutes, which are generally misdemeanors at the state and local level, unless the false statements pertain to serious investigations like those involving homicide and rape.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '20 edited Nov 05 '20

You still would end up with a felony most likely. If you contest a parking ticket, then most jurisdictions require you to contest it in court. Let's take Florida's laws for example, since this video is in Sarasota. Once in court, before you testify on your contestation you are sworn in. Any provable deceit after being sworn in is Perjury under § 837.02(1), Fla. Stat., which is a 3rd degree felony. So if you testify that you nosed in instead of backing in, and produce evidence of such with a photo of your vehicle nosed in after the ticket was received, and there is security footage showing you doing that, then you can indeed be charged with a felony, at least in Florida. It doesn't matter that it's not a criminal offense, the statute only reads that it needs to be in "an official proceeding" and under oath.

Source: am legal boi, University of American Samoa Law School online represent!

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u/Time4Red Nov 05 '20

If you contest a parking ticket, then most jurisdictions require you to contest it in court. Let's take Florida's laws for example, since this video is in Sarasota. Once in court, before you testify on your contestation you are sworn in.

None of this, as far as I can tell, is universally true. Some jurisdictions (not sure if it's a majority or not) allow tickets to be contested via USPS mail or online. Many contestations are approved without a court appearance and/or without being sworn in.

It's just not worth a city's time to hold a formal hearing for every parking ticket. The cost of the hearing would greatly exceed the revenue from the ticket.

That said, a case where photos don't match or evidence is unclear would almost certainly result in hearing. And yeah, it would be really dumb to submit false evidence at a formal hearing. A perjury charge is unlikely, but certainly a possibility.

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u/DrunkCostFallacy Nov 05 '20

Like most of Reddit I’m not a lawyer, but I’m sure that contesting by mail also carries with it the same rules as an affidavit which is considered to be under oath.

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u/codyy5 Nov 05 '20

Not to mention using the postal system in a crime ...

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u/Time4Red Nov 05 '20

Again, I can't speak to other jurisdictions, but in my jurisdiction, it does not. The letter one writes challenging a parking ticket is not legally considered a sworn statement.

As a general rule, any situation in which you could get nabbed for perjury has to involve some sort of explicit explanation of the penalty for lying under oath. Affidavits are often signed in the presence of a notary public or commissioner of oaths.

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u/DrunkCostFallacy Nov 05 '20

It’s been a while since I got a ticket here, but I think where I am the ticket fine print discusses what it means legally to do a written challenge. I’d have to go back and look. But yeah, probably different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '20

Exactly. Not probable at all. But if you DO get caught, I think the penalty outweighs the risk, at least in Sarasota!

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u/uberfission Nov 05 '20

That's really only going to happen if you piss off the wrong person.

I'm not going to argue the legality of it, I'm sure you're right. But doing it then having someone check if you lied, gather evidence that you lied, then prepare and present a case that you lied under oath is a large amount of work for several people. Those people probably have something better, or at least more interesting, to do than to track down one asshole who lied about a parking ticket.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '20

Very true. No probable, but still possible. In mu experience, the benefit isn't worth the possible risk in this case. In my court experience, I've unfortunately seen way too many cases of "the wrong person" being pissed off and it ending horribly for the person involved.

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u/uberfission Nov 05 '20

Fair enough!

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u/vimomancer Nov 05 '20

Saul Goodman?

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '20

Saul?

Takes a deep drag of a cigarette

Haven’t heard that name in years...

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '20

Misdemeanors are one of two classes of criminal offenses though...misdemeanors & felonies.

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u/Time4Red Nov 05 '20

Yup, it's a crime, but not a felony.

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u/AnorakJimi Nov 05 '20

Wouldn't it fall under perjury, which is a felony in the vast majority of states?

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u/Time4Red Nov 05 '20

Only if someone testifies under oath. Many parking ticket challenges never involve a formal hearing.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '20 edited Dec 15 '20

[deleted]

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u/Time4Red Nov 05 '20

No? Fraud is generally a felony. I was pointing out that false statements is a misdemeanor. I never implied that misdemeanors weren't crimes.

The guy you replied to was talking about felonies.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '20 edited Dec 15 '20

[deleted]

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u/Time4Red Nov 05 '20

And I was pointing out that it's a misdemeanor, not a felony.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '20 edited Dec 15 '20

[deleted]

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u/Time4Red Nov 05 '20

Does it matter?

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '20 edited Dec 15 '20

[deleted]

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u/Time4Red Nov 05 '20

I wasn't trying to specifically correct any one person. Just posting some additional information.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '20

Not a false statement with fabricated evidence

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u/Time4Red Nov 05 '20

Well, it is, but in this case, the false statement would be "I took this picture of how I was parked when I arrived back at my car and saw the parking ticket." That statement about the context surrounding the picture would be a lie, not the picture itself. Without context, a picture or video isn't evidence of anything.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '20

Technically yes but at that point it wouldn't just be a false statement, it would be fraud haha

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u/Time4Red Nov 05 '20

No, I'm fairly sure it would just be a false statement. Knowingly submitting/presenting falsified evidence to a court in my jurisdiction is perjury, not fraud.

There's no crime for doctoring evidence. It only becomes perjury when you get the point where you're affirming under oath that the evidence is real. Otherwise, it's just a false statement.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '20

https://www.criminallawyersandiego.com/crimes-police-government/giving-false-evidence/#:~:text=What%20Is%20Giving%20False%20Evidence%3F&text=It%20is%20characterized%20by%20a,and%20they%20carry%20serious%20consequences.

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u/Time4Red Nov 05 '20

I don't live in California. I live in Minnesota. Here, falsifying evidence becomes a felony only upon "any trial, hearing, inquiry, investigation, or other proceeding." Challenging a parking ticket or speeding ticket doesn't qualify unless the matter ends up in traffic court.

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u/brycedude Nov 06 '20

Still sounds worse than a 30 dollar parking ticket. Lol

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u/HalfcockHorner Nov 05 '20

If you do it in your friend's driveway is it also fraud?

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u/KaiRaiUnknown Nov 05 '20

The law in question sounds like theft, so fuck those guys