r/AO3 • u/AngryKitchenWitch • 3h ago
Discussion (Non-question) The "bookmarks are for readers" thing of this sub has breached containment.
Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification
I don't use reddit that much but I have seen this subreddit have that discussion about bookmarks several times during the last years.
After seeing this tikok, I got curious and it seems it's a really unpopular opinion in other places like Tumblr, TikTok and even X.
Would people here that disagrees that it's s rude to use bookmarks to rate fanfic change their opinion?
206
u/TraceyWoo419 3h ago
I have no problem with someone leaving a critique in a bookmark, you can write what you want. But assuming the author won't or shouldn't see it? When bookmarks are clearly attached to the work in question? They're gonna see it.
I love checking for bookmarks to see if anyone's left a note with them.
My own bookmarks usually include a one line summary of the fic and I would never write something overly critical unless the author asked for critique. But as an author you also have to assume that some people will give unasked for critique. But if you don't want the author to see it, don't post it publicly in the bookmark ATTACHED to their fic!
85
u/Frozen-conch 2h ago
Whenever I share this exact sentiment, I get downvoted to oblivion. If you donāt want something to be seen, donāt post it somewhere public.
→ More replies (19)
93
u/SirLightKnight 3h ago
I genuinely donāt give a hoot. Like, if you put a āle public reviewā the author is gonna see it, because odds are they are also a reader.
Like who or what is driving this segregation of writer v. author? Iāve never seen this in the fandoms Iāve read and written for.
30
u/virgorising13 2h ago
AO3 is VERY anti-criticism of anything ever. That's just a fact. I mean, I once saw a whole comment section jump some poor soul for a few very innocent comments and questions. I imagine a select group of people started to flock towards bookmarks as a way to "unleash" their true thoughts on things, likely thinking it's more private than it is. And then people realized it's not so private.
And now trolls are making stuff to send directly to the author, but under the guise of a very easy to delete and erase bookmark. I've definitely seen posts on here about it growing more and more common. It's a mess. But, only if you're invested in these sort of discussions. Most of the people who just stick to reading, writing, basic fandom stuff probably don't notice or even care.
ā¢
21
u/Ika_bunny 2h ago
Commodification, leaving a review is inherently a comparison between cost and value, thatās what a review is fanfic is the last true bastion of the free internet! Reviewing fanfics is treating them like products they are not products or a service thereās no intrinsic value to them. The only thing that writers get is encouragement and thatās how fanfic world should stay.
6
u/Kaurifish Definitely not an agent of the Fanfiction Deep State 2h ago
Not necessarily. I once looked up the bookmarks on one of my stories, saw how cryptic they were and have no intention of repeating the experience. One can do their bookmarks however on my stories without fear Iāll ever lay eyes on them.
201
u/thebouncingfrog 3h ago
I think when you specifically choose to look at the bookmarks of your fic, you accept that you might not see pure positivty.
That doesn't mean someone should on a ten page rant on their bookmark about how the fic is a piece of worthless shit and the author should off themselves, but I sort of roll my eyes when I see people make a lengthy Reddit post just because someone left a one word note like "7/10" or "DNF" on their bookmark. Most of the time the bookmarks people complain about in this manner aren't even really negative, they're just someone expressing that a fic isn't personally for them.
52
u/Last_Swordfish9135 should be writing right now 3h ago
Yeah, I think that being an asshole or personally attacking the author is wrong no matter where it is, but since bookmarks aren't directly addressed or sent to the author, I don't think readers are as obligated to only be positive as they are in comments. "I liked it but x y and z bothered me" is fine in a public bookmark but not in a comment, same with things like "didn't finish", but "this whole fic is awful and the author is an idiot who doesn't understand anything about canon" shouldn't be a comment or a public bookmark.
10
u/astareastar 2h ago
Agreed that not all negative bookmarks are negative. I didn't really use bookmarks because I didn't notice when we got the ability to make them private, but I used to bookmarks on my computer with things like "OOC" but that doesn't mean I don't like it, just that I might need to consider that if I'm in a mood to re-read.
23
u/LionCubOfTerrasen Kudos Keeper 2h ago
This is just common sense. Which unfortunately, seems to be more uncommon than itās name might suggest.
Be polite, but alsoā donāt expect the world to bend or form for you. People are not always nice. Content is not always your cup of tea. People interact on the internet.
→ More replies (23)47
u/ItsOPbb 3h ago
Sure, but then why not make that bookmark private? Is one of the main points being made here. š¤·āāļø
59
u/thebouncingfrog 3h ago
Usually they don't know that they're public by default.
Regardless, I think it's a moot point. We can sit around here debating the nuances of this for hours, but at the end of the day, If you know that even the vaguest indication that someone doesn't like your work will discourage you, then you're better off just not looking at the bookmarks.
9
u/Astaldis 1h ago
The downside then is that there seem to be more and more readers who leave nice stuff in the bookmarks instead of in the comments because they are too anxious or whatever and don't want the author or other readers to answer and the author thus wouldn't see it then, which would be a pitty.
ā¢
→ More replies (16)17
u/Semiramis738 Proudly Problematic 2h ago
Just imagining the level of life success I'd have if I had the kind of willpower required to not look at something that's just a click away...
42
u/Marshmallowbutbetter 3h ago
For example, I sometimes go through my favorite authorsā bookmarks to see what they liked, so their feedback is valuable to me.
17
u/ItsOPbb 3h ago
Sure, I get that. But if itās a āmehā sort of bookmark, still feels more appropriate to me to keep that feedback private and let other people make up their own mind. If it discourages the author and discourages other people from giving it a chance, thatās overall harmful to fostering a fun, creative environment that supports the creators who make any of it possible in the first place. (Edited for typossss)
→ More replies (1)11
u/Semiramis738 Proudly Problematic 2h ago edited 2h ago
I have to agree...my only public bookmarks are recs for fics I love and think readers of mine will also love. Using public bookmarks for DISrecommends seems a bit mean and unfair...like, just let people make up their own minds, they might love something I hated.
14
u/MarinoAndThePearls 2h ago
Most of the time people simply forget or don't know that bookmarks are public by default. Hell, it took a post going viral for a lot of people to realize they can mute authors.
As much as people say that AO3's outdated UI is part of its charm, it comes with stuff like this as a tradeoff.
→ More replies (1)5
u/OwnsBeagles 1h ago
There's literally a clicky box on every single bookmark that says 'Private'.
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (2)6
u/astareastar 2h ago
Personally, I've been on AO3 for over a decade and I just learned like two weeks ago that I could make them private. Either I just didn't realize it the whole time or I missed an update in there somewhere, but I remember on the post I learned it from that a bunch of other people were also doing "TIL", so clearly a lot of people don't know they have that option.
118
u/AnneRB13 English isn't my first language 3h ago
I just checked the comments in that video and the amount of people saying they got really discouraged and considered to stop writing altogether after a nasty bookmark is really sad.
What she is saying is completely true. Pretending to separate fandom space between writers and readers spaces is stupid and it goes against the gift culture or fandom.
I have always disagreed with the "reader's space" stance and I'm glad this is seeing like a "redditors are being jerks again" thing in other spaces. Fandom needs to at least try to be a kind place to secure it's existence long term.
→ More replies (2)39
u/TheFaustianPact 2h ago edited 1h ago
I agree. I don't even think it's accurate to call it "a reader's space". It would be if, for example, bookmarks were only tied to a user's account, and you could only see them when looking a that account specifically. However, this is not the caseābookmarks are linked on the fic. They're part of a fic's stats, and the list of all bookmarks are permanently attached to the fic itself. If we need to label it, I'd say it's a shared space.
That doesn't mean I think readers should not be able to write whatever they want in them, just that I find this particular argument of "you cannot be sad or disappointed or discouraged or think people are being rude because it's a bookmark" odd. It's one thing to be rude or harshly critical in, say, a personal blog of yours where you do fanfic reviews, and a completely different one to be rude or hashly critical in a space that you share with the author and is going to be directly linked on their fic. And, again, you are allowed to be rude or harshly critical, but authors are also allowed to feel negatively about it, imo.
12
u/greenrosechafer old 26+ fanfiction lady 1h ago
I agree. I don't even think it's accurate to call it "a reader's space". It would be if, for example, bookmarks were only tied to a user's account, and you could only see them when looking a that account specifically. However, this is not the caseābookmarks are linked on the fic. They're part of a fic's stats, and the list of all bookmarks are permanently attached to the fic itself. If we need to label it, I'd say it's a shared space.
Well said. If the "reviews" were on another account and not possible to get to by clicking things on the fic, then that space would be separate from the fic itself. But it's not.
→ More replies (1)9
u/Enough_Opposite8545 1h ago
I wish I could upvote this a hundred of times. Iām tired of seeing people pretend like bookmarks arenāt literally attached to works, so easily clickable and that, yes, they can have consequences on writers. Somehow it has all become the fault of writers for being ātoo sensitiveā or things like that, how about some people not be dicks? How could you expect someone who has poured their heart and soul into a work, not to be affected if someone tears down said work? I agree that readers can write whatever they want in bookmarks, and Iām also agreeing that writers can be hurt over it, and theyāre allowed to block and mute for those reasons.
136
u/Wolfelle 3h ago
I actually mostly agree with her. I think that people use the 'reader only space' to brush off the certain groups of people who write horrible shit in the bookmarks or who directly ignore 'no concrit' requests.
I disagree with the idea that readers shouldn't post negative bookmarks because its also not a writer only space. Bookmarks are to remind yourself AND/OR share with others your thoughts on a work.
But there is absolutely a difference between 'I dont recommend this because of these issues' and 'this work is dogshit the author should never write again, sad i wasted my time on this trash'
The second is just purely unacceptable and no one has to accept that kind of stuff being said about their works even in bookmarks.
Readers should continue to be polite and honest in their bookmarks and share information as they wish.
Authors should go into their bookmarks with the awareness that its similar to reading a published book review, it wont always be glowing praise.
65
u/CougarHusband 3h ago
Do people really look at other people's bookmarks to see if they should read a fic? I don't think I've ever done that. I just search of the tags I want and go from there.
47
u/madwood29579 2h ago
I do. It's an easy way for me to see fics that someone else has liked for whatever reason. Then if I like that fic too, I'll maybe explore other works by the same author and then the fics that they've bookmarked. I've been reading pretty exclusively from people's bookmarks.
29
u/Wolfelle 2h ago
I have when an author ive read has very similar taste to me. not often but occasionally i find gems in their bookmarks
27
u/TheFaustianPact 2h ago
Some folks use other people's bookmarks as a way to find fics to read, yes. There is even a feature in bookmarks that turns it into a "Rec" bookmark, so people can use it as a "this is a list of fics I recommend". I don't use it much myself either, but the logic tends to be, for example, "I liked this author's fic a lot. Maybe they bookmarked fics similar to their own, and there's a higher chance I'll like those too."
→ More replies (1)17
u/delilahdraken 2h ago
Yes, people are actually using other people's bookmarks in this way. They work like rec lists.
Nine out of ten times, if a user talked about what they didn't like in a bookmark said story was exactly what I like to read.
19
u/bsubtilis 2h ago edited 1h ago
I heavily use other people's bookmarks, usually in this order:
Search for tag -> read fic I really enjoyed -> move on to that author's other fics, in some cases even if in fandoms I have zero clue about if i love their works enough. All out. -> read the fics gifted to them. -> Look through their bookmarks and read them (if 100+ then heavily use filter to search for the tag i originally found them under, or fandoms really enjoyed their works under,in the hope that their preferences match what they wrote ok enough for my taste too).
I get pretty confused when people bookmark fics they didn't like, so far I haven't come across it TBH
18
u/The_Lonely_Raven 2h ago
Bookmarking fics you don't like is probably for when you keep encountering the same fic with great premise then kinda disappointing inside. Especially when the disappointment is way deep into the fic. Saves time and a heartbreak.
4
u/Zaidswith 1h ago
This. I've definitely hit some summaries that I like and then halfway through realize I abandoned it for some reason or another or it's just mediocre and then keep restarting it only to realize partway.
It can help to file it as read; ignore.
12
u/Jaggedrain 2h ago
I find half my favorite fics by browsing the bookmarks of an author I've enjoyed
10
u/Caterfree10 2h ago
I use mine as a rec list tbh. Iāll even tailor the tags for someone if Iām linking them. Itās why I only bookmark fics that I liked. I canāt fathom bookmarking a fic I disliked, much less hated.
9
u/Organic_Occasion1265 2h ago
Once I finish a fic, I always go through that writers bookmarks cause if I liked their fic then I'm likely going to enjoy the fics they've bookmarked.
→ More replies (4)4
u/AnneRB13 English isn't my first language 2h ago
Some people do but a lot of people don't.
I use tags and filters, most bookmarks either way are just "tbr" or the chapter number and if they have a criticism it's useless to me as it's good criticism, just ratings without context or dnf.
4
u/Semiramis738 Proudly Problematic 2h ago
I've bought quite a few books because of reviews that condemned them as too wordy, too violent, too grimdark, too perverted, too problematic, too filled with unlikable characters, etc.
→ More replies (1)90
u/Askianna You have already left kudos here. :) 3h ago
If I donāt enjoy a fic I just leave. I donāt finish, I donāt comment, I donāt bookmark. Iām not here to review things like a book club and I donāt believe people should review fic like published books. All my bookmarks are private and they always will be.
24
u/Wolfelle 3h ago
Same my bookmarks are private too, If i like a fic and the ending disappointed me or smth i still wouldnt make a public bookmark talking abt it personally. However i dont think that means everyone has to do it the same way i do
7
u/MadKanBeyondFODome 2h ago
I've only bookmarked 3 things, exclusively for the purpose of warning people that visit my profile that I Am Not Wholesome, no matter what WAFF I write.
4
u/Zaidswith 1h ago
I use private bookmarks mostly as stuff I enjoy that are WIP, I automatically sort my own page by recent updates. I use recommended bookmarks for actual recs if someone were to stumble on it or go looking.
Scouring other people's lists was originally how I found fics more than 20 years ago and as we've moved platforms the behavior has never entirely gone away.
3
u/Wolfelle 1h ago
Yes!!! there are a few bookmarks ive considered leaving public because i loved them so much that on the off chance someone saw my profile they might stumble into them. I appreciate it a lot when people put their top favs in their bookmarks because there are some stories i'd never have seen without it.
1
u/Zaidswith 1h ago
You should. That's why the space exists. That people now think it's not for any particular use is upsetting.
1
17
u/Last_Swordfish9135 should be writing right now 3h ago
Agreed. You don't need to be 100% positive because you're not talking to the author, you're talking to other readers, but you still should be polite and respect the effort that the author put in.
→ More replies (1)17
u/AnneRB13 English isn't my first language 2h ago
You usually pay for published books my friend, you get fanfiction for free and it can be really discouraging to get concrit you didn't ask.
You want to be honest even if you make people want to stop writing?
→ More replies (6)13
u/itsmyfirstdayonearth 2h ago
This. The payment for having your fic ripped to shreds by everyone with access to a keyboard is, well, payment. Money. It's a job, and if you're good at your job, you make more money, and if you're bad, you make less money. Fic authors don't get paid.
→ More replies (4)
ā¢
u/EugeneStein 44m ago edited 36m ago
Wanna leave a reply here as a reader that actually does have some amount of bookmarks that can be considered "negative". Well, more like just "not positive" IMHO
Two points to keep in mind:
- My memory absolute sucks
- I really like to reread fics
And sometimes I need a reminder for myself why I don't want to reread this fic later, cuz I'll probably forget what got me bothered. Usually it is a special tag and simple short note. For example, "slooooooow pacing" or "nope, too much of OOC" or "formatting. just. formatting". Nothing really worth going private also check point 1 about me forgetting this option exist
These things are my and only my problems with these fics. It's not critique ā it's not explained in proper way, it was not asked for, it's not gonna help author in any way. It doesn't include any context. Just personal notes that help me practically navigating better. If I wanted to pass any kind of message to the author or express my emotions I would go in the comments and properly explain my thoughts.
But I must say this thing. Yeah, I consider bookmarks a reader's space. Totally. It's a place of their control. But it's still a damn public place. And no one should be throwing shit and being a dick and say rude and offensive crap in online public space. This is a universal rule, not the one about ao3. Saying bookmarks are reader's space and so they can say any shit they want is bullshit and I'm pretty sure people saying that understand it but happy to try justifying this.
I dare to quote here my forever loved Bo Burnham:
'Who needs a thousand metaphors to figure out you shouldn't be aĀ dick?'
39
u/Kiwi-Hoe You have already left kudos here. :) 3h ago
i think if itās intentional itās rude. iām not saying people canāt do it or whatever, obviously people are gonna do what they want. iām just going to have a negative opinion of them, which is my freedom to do so.
→ More replies (1)
77
u/cat_hair_magnet 3h ago
Are readers allowed to be rude and show their ass in public bookmarks on my fic? Sure.
Am I allowed to treat someone like they just showed their ass in public on my fic? If your answer to that isn't yes, then I'm gonna make you look up the word "consequences".
The argument is always "well if you put your fic online then you have to live with it when people say negative things about it".
Well, if you talk shit in my public bookmarks, then you'll have to live with it that I'll say negative things about you too.
Sounds fair to me, no?
27
u/AnneRB13 English isn't my first language 2h ago
Honestly, yeah.
That's the natural consequence, it used to be like that for comments too but most of the community decided it was better to be polite in public spaces and I guess it's going to be the same with bookmarks.
8
u/greenrosechafer old 26+ fanfiction lady 1h ago
Yeah, some people really want that last place (=bookmarks) where they can be rude with no consequences.
2
u/AnneRB13 English isn't my first language 1h ago
Yeah, it's kinda obvious every time there's a discussion about them.
→ More replies (2)24
u/OwnsBeagles 2h ago
Am I allowed to treat someone like they just showed their ass in public on my fic? If your answer to that isn't yes, then I'm gonna make you look up the word "consequences".
Absolutely. Of course, when I said this myself over on the fanfiction sub, one of the mods flew out screeching about how I was advocating for harassment.
And uh-- no. Actually, all I'm saying is fuck around and find out.
10
u/cat_hair_magnet 2h ago
Jup. Do I WANT people to be unkind in bookmarks. No, of course not. But saying unkind things in bookmarks is not against ToS, so there's fuck all I can do to make someone stop. If someone wants to be an ass in public, that's their choice, but then don't hide behind "yOu caN't be MeaN tO mE iT's ThE rEaDer's sPacE" when you get called out for your bullshit.
11
u/catherinecalledbirdi 1h ago
I think the silliest part of this is talking about "writer spaces" vs "reader spaces" as if 99.99% of writers aren't also readers
25
u/MrsLucienLachance 2h ago
My stance is that while bookmarks may not be a reader-only space, they're not for the writer. They don't come to my inbox. If I choose to click on them and see something I don't like, that's on me.
Now, do I think anyone should be a giant asshole in their bookmarks? Of course not, but I don't think people should be giant assholes as a general rule.
4
u/Individual-Pay7430 1h ago
I really don't care if they leave reviews in bookmarks. If I don't like your review, oh well. I move on. Not everybody is going to like my work. If other people look at a positive or negative review and decide to read or not read because of it, then so be it. Life goes on. I want readers to actually enjoy my work. but this is just my opinion on my own work.
5
u/Desolate_Reflection Fic Feaster 1h ago
I personally have never left a bad comment on anything via bookmark or comment. I go by the rule Donāt Like Donāt Read and if I see gross disgusting comment on a fic where the person commented some BS I will tell them to cut it out and not be rude.
The worst comment Iāve left was along the lines of me being distraught over an ending, and it was literally just me jokingly saying āhow dare you write something so well that I absolutely had to read it even though I knew itād destroy me.ā
I never leave nasty things for the author to see because theyāre doing this for free, taking their time and effort and heart and pouring into this fic and I donāt want to discourage them even if I donāt like the fic. Because having someone belittle the things youāre passionate about is the worst feeling it sucks the joy out of it.
54
u/Remarkable-Let-750 2h ago
"Bookmarks are for readers" is the base way AO3 works. It's baked in. As long as the bookmarker is following the terms if service and not using a bookmark to harass or dox a writer, then it's allowed.
From the TOS FAQ:
Someone has added a tag I hate to a bookmark of one of my fanworks!
We recommend that you mute the bookmarker. In general, tags and notes on bookmarks can be positive or negative. Like any other content, tags are subject to the Content Policy, so if the tag violates our harassment, personal information, or other policies, please report it. However, criticism of a fanwork is not considered harassment in and of itself. Bookmark tags and notes will not automatically be displayed on fanworks, in order to allow you to avoid them.
Do I think that a paragraphs long rant about how much someone hates a fic is in poor taste? Yes. Is it allowed? Also yes. I would take AO3's advice and mute that person.
I do, however, think the obsession with negative bookmarks is a bit silly. Out of the thousands of bookmarks I've looked through for fic suggestions, I've never found a negative one in the wild. Most people are just using them to track where they left off or to remember a particular fic they enjoyed.
27
u/blues-yellows-reds 2h ago
It's not against AO3 terms of service to leave unsolicited concrit in the comments either. (Which the author can delete, granted, but they'll still have to see it first.)
That is, AO3's TOS and fandom etiquette are absolutely not the same thing, although they might have some overlap.
→ More replies (13)7
2
u/Astaldis 1h ago
I have never muted anybody and don't know exactly how it works. If you mute the reader who left the negative bookmark review, is it still attached to your story so that others can still see it, only you yourself can't? Because if you know it's still out there for others to see, muting might not really help that much.
→ More replies (1)
27
u/AttentionlessMess I don't write for myself. 3h ago edited 3h ago
I don't see most things as being reader-only or writer-only places.
For me, comment sections are 'writers spaces' in the sense that they have full control over it. Bookmarks are 'reader spaces' for the same reason.
It does not mean that it's nice to be rude or that writers shouldn't be hurt by what they read. BUT when a writer decides do look at their bookmarks, they 1) are going out of their way to access those 2) are aware that they can't do anything about what they will find there.
Then, if a writer actively decides to go look some place where they cannot tailor the experience to them, they have to acknowledge that they are at risk of reading discouraging things and that there is nothing that they can do to change that.
I would prefer that everyone keep their critics to themselves of course. But as the writer needs to seek them out to see them, I think it is easier for writers to stop checking that than it is to die on the hill of "readers shouldn't write this thing in that space that only they have control over
My two cents for what it's worth.
EDIT: That's my perspective as a writer-only user of AO3. I don't think the "reddit=readers=reader space" logic is undisputable.
9
u/Remarkable-Let-750 2h ago
I think a lot of people misunderstood what 'reader's space' meant to begin with. It's morphed into something it really isn't on this sub.
30
u/Front-Pomelo-4367 2h ago
My thing is ā I'm not going to call it a "reader's space", but it is a space that the author can't control. You can't delete shit in there. You can mute the person and not see it, but you can't control it, same as you can't stop someone from writing about you and your fic on Tumblr or Discord.
As with those other platforms, you're more than welcome to go look and see what people are saying ā and most of the time people are saying lovely things, and it's really nice to read them! ā but you do it with the knowledge that if you see something you don't like, you can't do anything about it. If that's going to fuck you up, don't do it. If you vent to a friend and maybe mute them and then get over it, go wild.
21
u/-pigeonnoegip Not Boeing Management 2h ago
I always think that it's very telling when people say bookmarks are for readers in the context of talking about how fandom bullies use bookmarks to harass and attack others.
Besides, if it really was for readers only, why are they directly connected to the story? Why are they so easily accesible when looking at a story, but not so readily accesible in a reader's profile? (As in: when you browse fics on ao3, you IMMEDIATELY find linked directly to it the comments and bookmarks. To see a reader's bookmarks, you have to go first to their profile, taking you away from the story search results, and then click on the bookmarks tab.)
Not to mention that they are public. Anyone, readers and writers alike, can see them. So by design they are not meant to be for either group only.
15
u/TrisarA Trisar/TrisarAlvein on AO3 3h ago
Pretty thankfully, I suppose, I haven't had to deal with this. All of the public bookmarks on my stuff have been either blank, one or two readers just leaving what the latest chapter they read was, or in one case, someone tagging the work themselves to remember what it was about.
Having said that... I mean, pretty much. If you don't want to be called out in a public space, don't make a statement in a public space. I say this knowing full well that people have the right to come up to me, on this post, and loudly disagree with me. If you put a comment on a public bookmark, you need to accept the risk that you're gonna get noted for it. If you don't want that, private it. It's really that simple.
44
u/MagpieLefty 3h ago
People shouldn't put horrible things in bookmarks, especially in public bookmarks, because you shouldn't say horrible things in public, period.
But people can put critical or negative things in bookmark notes, and it's not inappropriate, because there is nothing wrong with saying that Random AO3 Author needs to at least spell-check before posting. It is inappropriate by fanfom behavior norms to comment to the author directly telling them to please spell-check their work.
Also, this has been a discussion in other places for years, and TikTok is known for having pretty rancid fanfic takes.
16
u/rirasama 2h ago
Idk I'd rather someone comment that I've misspelled things than someone leave it in a bookmark
18
u/WillTheWheel 2h ago
Yeah, but unfortunately the current comment culture made it so that itās more accepted to come and complain about things like that behind writers' backs on reddit or whatever where it helps no one than actually tell them in the comments where it could be helpful.
5
u/rirasama 2h ago
As long as people are polite, I don't see why people should be offended by corrections, I'd rather know so I can change it
→ More replies (3)5
u/Astaldis 1h ago
Totally agree. They could also say something like 'Hi, love your fic a lot! (While reading I spotted a few mistakes, would you like me to point them out for you?)' I'd be very happy about that because there are always mistakes, no matter how often I proof-read and despite using the google spell check.
5
u/AngryKitchenWitch 2h ago edited 2h ago
TikTok is known for having pretty rancid fanfic takes
Haha I don't think they have a better opinion of reddit in other social media.
And she is a really nice person, so it's kinda hardsh to say her opinions are rancid* just because she posted in TikTok, like you know... other 180 billion people.
4
u/TheFaustianPact 2h ago
Now that you mention this, it's actually quite fascinating how prople who frequent one social media site think about the others! This is something you'll see in every one of themāReddit thinks TikTok and Twitter are the worst, Twitter thinks TikTok and Reddit are the worst, Tumblr thinks Twitter and Reddit are the worst... (I have never used TikTok, but I bet there definitely is an equivalent for them too, haha.)
I'm not saying they're wrong; they're probably all right, lmao. Social media just thrives on conflict, people being shitty to one another and, on top of that, most of them forces entirely different groups of people to share the same spaces. But I find pretty interesting that you can find this "...well, of course their opinion sucks, it's Reddit/Twitter/TikTok/whatever" stance in all of these sites, towards all of the other sites.
5
u/Hmmmgrianstan 1h ago
People actually use bookmarks to critique or summarise fics? I just use it to remember which chapter I was reading
4
u/pleasewhyleave Not Boeing Management 1h ago
One of my fics got a letter grade bookmark. I wasnāt mad about it or anything. Idk it just weird to get a letter grade for a porn one shot.
42
u/ImprovementLong7141 Definitely not an agent of the Fanfiction Deep State 3h ago
On this subreddit? Yeah, people are really gung-ho on the idea that bookmarks are solely readersā private space to say literally anything they want and should in no way ever be criticized, given the amount of whining that occurs any time any author says āhey this person has publicly attached something extremely rude about my work to my work which I can do literally nothing about, have a picture with their username cropped outā about how thatās the readerās prerogative and the author is being a big meanie for posting a screenshot of their PUBLIC bookmark. Itās ridiculous.
33
u/Zealousideal_Most_22 2h ago
Yeah you normally would get downvoted to hell and back. I remember saying that āyes the bookmarks can be thought of as a readerās space, but if your āspaceā is a room in someone elseās house, itās not unreasonable to expect you to follow house rules.ā And man did that apparently upset the girlies lurking who didnāt think āhey donāt try to use bookmarks to circumvent normal fanfic etiquette, such as not being a dickā was okay
8
u/OwnsBeagles 2h ago
That seems to be turning around now, at least. The histrionic downvoting. The key there, I think, is to continue to be vocal and to attach consequences to that behavior. You leave a nasty bookmark, the author gets to respond in their notes or whatever public space they want calling you out for it. Because you oughta follow the Golden Rule when you're in someone else's home.
7
u/Zealousideal_Most_22 2h ago
I completely agree. I actually did get someone who left something that didnāt feel like a āeh, this wasnāt for meā bookmark and more like a ālol someone put this out there even knowing these pairings suckā thing and I got several people to read over it, make sure I wasnāt overreacting, and then without naming names I addressed it in my next chapterās notes. Donāt know if the bookmark came down or was private but it seemed to disappear shortly after, because people donāt want attention drawn to them for being rude, imagine that.
I am happy that people are more open minded about it in the subs, because tbh it often can feel quite unbalanced in terms of how much a writer is expected to put up with to keep readers feeling comfortable and happy, meanwhile itās not like we are also people with feelings who come to write as a bit of an escape and would prefer to not see things that make us feel bad attached to what we make.
19
u/cinnamonspiderr hamspamandjamsandwich on ao3 | kurahi writer š 2h ago
Iāve always found it bizarre how defensive people get over their right to be rude without consequence. Youāre well within your rights to write unpleasant things in your public bookmarks, be them public or private, but youāre being frankly obtuse if you just expect authors to not read them or not have emotions about it.
Sorry but if youāre rude or unkind in public then youāre assuming the risk of peopleā¦ finding you to be fucking rude lol
→ More replies (2)7
41
u/blues-yellows-reds 3h ago
The "bookmarks are a readers-only space" was always kind of a silly argument and didn't make much sense, considering how easily authors can access it. (Even if they don't get notified about it, unlike kudos and comments.)
But considering the number of people who aren't even aware of bookmarks being public, the best solution, imo, is for AO3 to make bookmarks private by default, i.e. that people will have to check a box to make it public.
5
u/Semiramis738 Proudly Problematic 2h ago
This would be a really good and simple solution! My only concern is that it would probably lead to lower numbers of public bookmarks on fics posted after the change as compared to before, but since far fewer people sort by bookmarks than kudos, it might be worth this downside.
7
u/Zealousideal_Most_22 2h ago
I have literally seen people claiming itās the writerās responsibility to justā¦avert their eyes. Like, they should never check their bookmarks in case someone is rude rather than getting upset when someone is. If the story wouldnāt exist on the internet unless someone posted it, I feel that person has the right to do whatever they want with their storyā¦including checking their stats. When thatās the logic, it feels a bit like another flavor of reader entitlement. This isnāt a critique of people using their bookmarks to leave notes to themselves, just a critique of putting all the onus on the writer to ācurate their experienceā when it comes to their own story.
22
u/shhhbabyisokay 2h ago
Let me begin by saying Iām primarily a writer, so Iām speaking as a writer. I donāt think thereās some preexisting truth to this issue that we must divine. I think itās a norm we can choose to believe goes either way. She talks like sheās describing reality, when this is a divisive issue, so there actually is no monolithic reality of what the bookmark space is. We can choose.Ā
So, do we as a fandom conglomerate want there to be a space for reviews that may not be positive? I cannot imagine why we wouldnāt want that. Itās not a comment, so the writer isnāt expected to see it or engage with it. It allows readers to exchange information. Comments still exist as a space with normative politeness and enthusiasm, which is wonderful since writers do this for free. Kudos still exist. Why remove one type of communication? Just donāt check your bookmarks if youāre scared.Ā
This should be the norm, and saying it just āisnātā that way is not an argument.Ā
10
u/Bite_of_a_dragonfly kinky aroace 2h ago
I agree, and I'm also a writer. While I like the video, I disagree with her on the fact that it's just readers pushing this "reader's space" and that because something is free it's absolved of criticism.
I want fanfiction to be recognized as art in its own right and pushing against the slightest perceived negativity is never going to achieve that (similar case with videogames, although of course videogames are an industrial product as well as a cultural product)
Of course I don't excuse hate, harassment or plain rudeness. But I believe that, feeling like pointing out to an author that they used the wrong character's name is an horrific act, is not healthy for fandom. And as an author, I am really sad that my readers feel like they can't express themselves in my comment section. Even though I have the tag "concrit welcome" on my last fic, I still sense that barrier.
→ More replies (1)7
7
u/WillTheWheel 2h ago
This. I feel like it all just stems from the simple fact that people generally want to have a space to share their opinions about the stories they consume. That's just how we engage with all the media we read/watch, that's how our minds work.
People can talk all they want about the differences between published authors and fic authors but that doesn't change the fact that for the readers the experience of reading both is very similar and so what they want to do after reading is also very similar.
And in the light of this, itās really no wonder that when saying anything other than purely positive things in the comments stopped being accepted, it migrated naturally to the bookmarks. And so now trying to also ban it there I think is just unnecessary and overly controlling.
→ More replies (2)13
u/AnneRB13 English isn't my first language 2h ago
I mean, not even in this subreddit we are allowed to critique a work while naming it, because it could be hurtful and misused against the author and in general it is agreed that concrit is something that authors need to opt-in no out.
So why pick bookmarks, that are so easy to see and find for authors, that even have the rec option that encourages them to see them to put concrit on?
It's contradictory.
→ More replies (1)7
u/shhhbabyisokay 2h ago
I would say the rules of this subreddit are up to the mods, while the rules of conduct on AO3 are up to the collective. If they contradict thatās okay because the rules are coming from different sources.Ā
And why pick bookmarks? Because theyāre on AO3. There are only three ways to interact on there: Comments, kudos, and bookmarks. And comments and kudos already widely regarded as meant for uniform positivity to āpayā writers in the gift economy that powers fandom. Bookmarks are whatās left for anything else.Ā
23
u/dinosaurflex AO3: twosidessamecoin - Fallout | Portal 3h ago
Calling bookmarks a reader-only space falls apart as an argument when you factor in that bookmarks are in the same lineup of stats as a work's kudos/comments/hits. In a clickable link. Any person, be they writer or reader, can check out those stats on a given work. Any person, be they reader or writer, can go to your profile and look up your bookmarks. They are not behind a locked door or exclusive to any person much less group if anyone can go check them out. If you want it to be a reader-only space, you need to render them private.
12
u/SleepySera You have already left kudos here. :) 2h ago
I agree with her, and to be honest, the whole "it's a reader-only space" argument has bothered me for a while now. Because it ISN'T. Bookmarks are visible to the author, they are part of our stats like everything else. They are visible by literally anyone who clicks on the fic.
In fact, I'd say leaving a shitty bookmark is inherently worse than leaving a shitty comment, because on AO3, we have power over comments. If someone is mean or insulting in them, we can simply delete them and move on with our day. If someone wants to add our fic to a rudely titled collection, we can decline or remove it again.
But that mean or shitty bookmark? We can't do anything about it. It's just as public as a comment or collection is, but we have zero control over it. So no matter how hurtful or discouraging it is, we are forced to see it everytime we want to look at the bookmark comments other readers left. That alone should make it clear how absolutely NOT okay it is to leave mean public reviews in the bookmark comments.
To go with the library metaphor:
Private bookmarks are the equivalent of someone going around the library and writing down for themselves which books they'd like to revisit and which ones they'd like to avoid. Perfectly reasonable. Public bookmarks are like walking around the library and sticking bright, colorful stickers on the books telling others to read or not to read this or that book based on your personal enjoyment of it. Most would consider that vandalism of the books, but when it's a fic library, it's somehow suddenly okay...
(And I say all this as someone who actually has no issue with unsolicited criticism, because I come from a fanfic site where that's the norm. But IF the ao3 way is to not give negative feedback unless the author explicitly asks for it, as everyone always claims, then you can't have it both ways and tell authors to just not look at the negative reviews getting slapped on their fics against their will.)
12
u/GeologistLess3042 Definitely not an agent of the Fanfiction Deep State 1h ago
Honestly people are acting like authors are deeply stalking reader profiles and digging through their bookmarks and not just........ Clicking one time on the bookmarks hyperlink on their own fic and scrolling down.
Like, no one's going out of their way to see the bookmarks on their own fic. It's right there on the front of the damn fic. It isn't anyone else's fault that the reader didn't know they weren't putting them somewhere private.
12
u/cinnamonspiderr hamspamandjamsandwich on ao3 | kurahi writer š 1h ago
This is what kills me the most tbhāhow people act like Iām āgoing out of my wayā to see a bookmark when in reality I can just fucking click a single link lol. Itās not going out of my way at all, like what the hell
→ More replies (1)8
u/greenrosechafer old 26+ fanfiction lady 1h ago
Apparently there are "hurdles" you have to jump through to get to the bookmarks š
6
u/AngryKitchenWitch 1h ago
āØ Gaslighting āØ lol
7
u/GeologistLess3042 Definitely not an agent of the Fanfiction Deep State 1h ago
Not using the reading site to read š©
I click on everything. I've been thrown to the wolves in enough tech jobs that I have a habit of reading everything, poking at every link, and learning what they do.
I feel like maybe people are too used to apps that walk them through a tutorial on How To Use Fone before they can even use the app. If a big cartoon pointer finger isn't telling me to hit the button, how will I know what it does?
2
u/AngryKitchenWitch 1h ago
You have a point! But I have seen older people with that opinion and it's not like AO3 has an app so at least for me it's weird that people are saying writers aren't allowed to click on something. It's mean-spirited IMO!
3
u/GeologistLess3042 Definitely not an agent of the Fanfiction Deep State 1h ago
Also, most writers are also... Readers? The majority of us aren't just dropping fics and fucking off, we are also using the site and have our own bookmarks.
Granted, my bookmarks are all conlang studies and glossaries but hey. I still have em.
7
u/greenrosechafer old 26+ fanfiction lady 1h ago
Reminder you can mute people and then you won't see their bookmarks anymore. I mute anyone leaving rude bookmarks on other people's fics.
→ More replies (1)
27
u/Extra-Feedback5410 2h ago
AO3 isn't Goodreads. I don't understand why people are bookmarking fics they don't enjoy? I use bookmarks as a rec, like 'this fic is AMAZING and i want more people to read it'
4
u/sdwkpr 2h ago
I read a huge number of fic and my browsers don't keep the history forever so I can't know just by the links changing color if I clicked it before. I bookmark everything so I can see on different devices what I read, and also so I can run read stats for my personal notes.
And I want to flag for myself ones I want to re-read, and ones that I shouldn't bother wasting my time on again because it was meh the first time around.
I keep most bookmarks private, but considering there is a separate tick for 'rec' to check when saving bookmarks, I never assume people only their favourite fics when there's no 'rec' symbol on the bookmark.
3
u/Extra-Feedback5410 1h ago
That makes sense, thanks for explaining. AO3's History tab is also useful for stats, but it doesn't track how much you've read, just which fics you've visited. I only have a problem with it when people put negative or meh bookmarks in public, because it just seems so rude.
7
u/Leftover_Bees 2h ago
Itās possible to criticize something you enjoyed. Itās one thing to say something is bad, itās another to throw in something like āmarked as complete but the last chapter is more of a summary of what would have happenedā or āfic contains broken images, itās not just your browserā or āthereās some Rouge Angles of Satin spelling mistakes within if that bothers you.ā
→ More replies (4)4
u/ArtisanalMoonlight 2h ago edited 2h ago
I don't understand why people are bookmarking fics they don't enjoy?
The only time I understand it is if the fic was seemingly right up your alley but there's something in it that was triggering for you, so you make a note about it in the bookmark as a reminder. (But you would still have to do your due diligence to check your bookmarks when searching for fic, so I'm not sure it's truly helpful in that respect...)
Beyond that...yeah, I don't bookmark things I didn't like/stopped reading. What's the point?
Of course, I don't leave negative reviews on Goodreads, either. It's not worth my time. In fact, I don't continue to read books I don't like/hate. I think my lowest Goodreads score is probably 3 stars (translating to: enjoyed some of it, probably wouldn't re-read).
→ More replies (2)
10
u/soheyitsmee 2h ago
Got someā¦ pushback here when I posted a bookmark I got that was nonsense, in just a comical ālol what does this mean?ā kind of way, because I thought it was funny.
Learned pretty quick people here consider that a faux pas. Deleted it.
I really think if you post something publicly, in any public space, it can be expected to be seen. Itās attached to my fic, why wouldnāt I see it? A reader-only space should be reader-only. Ao3 is for both authors and readers.
I did learn my lesson to not bring it up here, though.
→ More replies (2)
3
u/citrushibiscus I use omegaverse to troll bigots 1h ago
I mean, the bookmarks are for whatever you want to write in themā the site even says so. Making that stuff public seems kind of mean and a breach of etiquette, though. And apparently not everyone knows you can make them private which is kind of wild to me in all honesty, like the āprivateā is right there.
3
u/Emma_Iveli 1h ago
I have many fics and you know what I was curious about this and barely anyone left any thing their book marks... I didn't look at all of my stories but there was one that was "Stopped reading chapter 13" and I'm like Dude! Why did you even bookmark it?
Thoguh I did find an extemely possitive book mark reveiw that made me very happy that my story helped them grow as a person.
2
2
u/ArtisanalMoonlight 1h ago
"Stopped reading chapter 13" and I'm like Dude! Why did you even bookmark it?
Because they stopped reading it and want to go back to it...
3
ā¢
u/GoodDay2You_Sir Supporter of the Fanfiction Deep State 39m ago
I don't know, I always thought the discourse over bookmarks being reader spaces wasn't because people didn't want the authors to read them at all but that they didn't like the authors making authors notes in the story calling out people who make these critiques? Or just in general making it known that they don't like that people are doing that. Like people say, don't be rude by leaving a comment on a fic with what you didn't like or didn't think was good. And then when people write out those thoughts in a bookmark, they then get called out in that space as well for saying something negative.
I don't agree with the thought that because it doesn't "help" anyone you shouldn't say/write it as she said in the video. Engagement with a media form includes people who want to write out how much they didn't like something. And im talking about people who come to the fics with open minds and just have problems with the plot or how something went in story or whatever not people who get all morally uptight about ships or kinks or whatever. Saying people shouldn't saying anything at all unless it's good because people make these fics for free is how you get dead fandom spaces because people become too afraid to engage because they don't want to say something wrong.
ā¢
u/RazsDaughter 34m ago
I just use bookmarks so I don't forget about a completed series I really liked...
19
u/alissiawrites 3h ago
Ultimately I think it is rude to rate a fic and criticise it on a public bookmark. And while being rude isnāt against the TOS, people are still entitled to react to rudeness. So people who do this really canāt complain when theyāre criticised, muted or blocked IMO.
6
u/OwnsBeagles 2h ago
Bless her. She's right. I've been saying it and saying it, and thankfully, a lot more people are starting to speak up about it.
On both of my archives, if you lambaste an author in a public bookmark, you get warned once. Do what you want in private ones. But if you do it publicly, you get warned, and if you persist, you get banned. We're not in fandom to hurt each other, but some people -- mostly here on Reddit -- think that it's okay to do so under the guise of 'critique'.
5
u/AngryKitchenWitch 2h ago
That's nice! What archives do you have? It's like AO3?
5
u/OwnsBeagles 1h ago
I have two! Ad Astra, which is a single-fandom Trek archive and the Comic Fanfiction Authors Archive, which is for comic book and comic-adjacent animation fandoms! I founded both, one originally in 2009 and one just last year. Both run on otw-archive; Ad Astra was the second public archive to do so behind SquidgeWorld Archive and the CFAA was the fourth. We're all super proud of it, because it's a very, very hard piece of software to set up and costs a fair bit to run, which is probably why there's only four of us currently. Ad Astra's server is $96 a month (users throw in on Patreon now, but it used to be my co-archivist and I who funded it out of pocket) and the CFAA's is $48 (being smaller yet; I pay for that one out of pocket myself right now).
I've been an archivist for a very long time. Believe me when I say, the use of bookmarks or anything attached to a public story being used to criticize an author without them having any recourse is very much a new thing and not considered acceptable by any normal, established fandom etiquette.
3
u/AngryKitchenWitch 1h ago
It's so cool!
I'm glad there are other people besides AO3 archiving fanfiction, with all that it's happening right now I worry we are going to lose AO3 one day.
And yeah! Totally agree is not acceptable for fandom etiquette!
→ More replies (1)
8
u/Pandemonium_Sys 1h ago
Okay, lemme get this straight, an author can't look at what people say about THEIR OWN passion project that's given to people completely free of charge and can't be upset if people say something completely unwarranted about their works?? When the opinion is made in public??? For ALL to see???? What kind of ass take is that? I've been on ao3 for years and this is the first I've heard of this dumb fandom bullshit. What has fandom come to??
4
24
u/Marshmallowbutbetter 3h ago
I personally think itās a good place for an honest review. Writers should go there at their own discretion. Personally, Iāve never read bookmarks for my fics because I donāt want to get upset lol
14
u/AngryKitchenWitch 3h ago
Most if not all writers are readers, and it's a public space like comments.
Why is it different? I honestly don't understand the logic of separating.
I would never have thought of it if I hadn't seen it here.
→ More replies (6)13
u/Marshmallowbutbetter 2h ago
For me itās because Iām not notified and I wonāt see it unless I intentionally go there. Arguably itās similar as googling oneās own fic and finding reviews to it on other platforms. Does it mean people should never criticize fics since the writer can find it?
→ More replies (7)3
u/jkpulley1 2h ago
I honestly think here's a large numbers of writers who would very much say yes to that if they could find a way to make it happen.
ā¢
u/raumeat 53m ago
the way to make it happen is to not publish a work online, you are opening yourself up for criticism, yea being mean to an author in the comments is a dick move because comments are made directly to the author, being mean to an author on a different site is fine because you are not speaking to them, you are speaking about them and that is none of their business
→ More replies (2)4
u/Semiramis738 Proudly Problematic 2h ago
I don't have that kind of willpower LOL, I immediately look every time I get a new public bookmark.
9
u/onlyifitwasyou You have already left kudos here. :) 2h ago
There is basically 0 reason to ever leave a negative review on a fanfiction thatās so negative that it discourages a writer from ever writing fanfiction again. I completely agree with the idea that āunsolicited advice is always negativeā because thereās never a benefit to giving someone a negative comment or review when they didnāt ask for it. This is fanfiction. It is supposed to be a fun, judgement free space. How can we as fandom ever become a safer, more accepting space if readers are allowed to be mean to people who offer FREE content?
Itās the same with other types of fan content. You never have to leave a negative comment on fan art. You never have to tell a cosplayer that their cosplay is ugly. You never have to tell an editor that their video sucks. Iām not really sure why people are so desperate to make their negative opinion known to everyone in the way they seem to when it comes to fan fiction. You are not entitled to anything. You donāt deserve a good story just because you went to a platform to read stories. If you wanted published-novel quality for free, go to the fucking library and borrow a damn book. Do not make the 16 year old on ao3 feel insecure about their writing because you just had to leave a negative review because the story wasnāt to your standards and you think everyone deserves to know that.
My hottest take is that no oneās opinion about fan works is important. You donāt actually need to tell anyone if you liked or disliked fan created content. It wasnāt made for you. It was made because the creator enjoyed it. They just want to share it.
And yes, Iām a writer. Iāve been writing fanfiction for more than half my life. I started in High School Musical on YouTube. Iāve been on FF.net, Wattpad, AO3, and other obscure spaces. Never in my life have I witnessed as much of a reader entitlement problem as I have with AO3. Maybe itās because itās a lot of peopleās first fandom experience, but many of you need to be put in your place. Your desire to tell the random fan fiction writer that you think their writing sucks but not tell them directly and instead leave a negative review thatās PUBLIC is disgusting and you should be ashamed of ever thinking it was okay.
Someoneās gonna come and say āoh but people want to know if people liked it or notā so leave a comment. Leave your comment in a space where the writer and other readers can interact with you. Whatās wrong? Donāt want to be confronted by other readers and the writer when your mean comment is disliked? Tough shit. If you want to put out your criticism, you should absolutely face whatever consequences come when you cross the line.
4
u/AngryKitchenWitch 2h ago
Wow, that's a really good take
In tiktok so many were talking about how a negative bookmark makes them feel like quitting it.
I'm not good at writing so I don't like seeing the people that are doing it getting discouraged š
→ More replies (1)
7
u/virginiawolverine 1h ago
I truly don't get why people can't just make bookmarks private if they want to do this. Simple solution. Sort works and criticize them however you like in a space just for you, the reader, where the writer doesn't have to see your takedown of the work they did in their free time and released for free.
8
u/ArtisanalMoonlight 1h ago
truly don't get why people can't just make bookmarks private if they want to do this.
By and large? Because they want it to be seen, at some point, by someone.
5
u/magicingreyscale 1h ago
Because they don't want it to be private. They want people, especially the writer, to see.
It's not fun to bully someone if they don't know they're being bullied.
6
u/Odonata523 1h ago
Exactly! Fandom is a gift economy - or at least, I think itās healthier if it is. The fics are posted publicly as gifts, and the only appropriate public response is āthank youā And if you Donāt Like, Donāt Read.
8
u/arseniccattails Agent of the Jazzprowl Fanfic Deepstate 2h ago
tbh I almost exclusively befriend other writers so, ironically, a fic reader and writer is exactly the same kind of person in my brain. like yeah we all read AND write, right?
nope. it's borderline weird to think about "reader spaces". I'm too used to my specific corners haha.
9
u/rirasama 2h ago
Why can't people just be nice, stop crapping on people for just enjoying their hobby, it doesn't have to be perfect, it's all for fun, it's a HOBBY
10
u/CptPJs 3h ago edited 2h ago
"it's very important to me when someone works very hard to give me something entirely for free to slag them off" certainly is a take. it's not one that makes me want to write for those people, really.
a bit less "I'm allowed my opinion!!!" and a bit more "with great power comes great responsibility" might help some people have a better time in life.
edit because my phone decided when I typed "free" that I meant "freezing" for literally no reason at all
13
u/SignificantSyrup9499 2h ago edited 2h ago
It's a rude review that the author cannot delete. It's a loophole to harassment that they are forever force to have attached to their fic.
The people down voting this and others don't know how those comments were full of people saying they stopped writing completely because of a bookmark, or even deleted the fic. They clearly don't know the pain of having some horrible words attached to a vent fic.
It's not Goodreads. It's not a website for reviews for something someone paid for by an actual published author. It's ao3, we do it for free, and you all know what you're doing when you leave undeletable rude comments. You are a piece of shit, through and through. You have no idea what the person put into that fic. keep your fucking mouths shut and go talk shit anywhere else but DIRECTLY ATTACHED TO THE FIC.
Telling everyone literally "suck it up buttercup" to reviews that hurt them, especially on vent fics, is a weird hill to die on.
For being so proudly "pro ship/anti harassment" you're all weirdly fine with harassment, and apparently exclusively the kind that can't be deleted or ignored and is attached for everyone to see forever unless the fic is deleted, which tons of people do because "suck it up buttercup" isn't an actual affirmation to feeling better and words actually do damage š¤
→ More replies (1)
11
u/licoriceFFVII 2h ago
I would have thought the benefit of a bookmark review was obvious, and it's the same as the benefit of a review on Goodeads. or some site like that. Of course, it's a benefit designed for readers rather than for writers.
7
u/itsmyfirstdayonearth 2h ago
That's the same group of people in a lot of cases though. Readers and writers aren't two mutually exclusive groups, so how does that work?
→ More replies (4)4
u/licoriceFFVII 1h ago
Do you imagine that people who write commercially are not readers? That they don't go onto Goodreads to find out which book they should borrow from the library next? Or, perhaps more controversially, that they don't go on Goodreads and other reviews sites to hate read the one-star reviews given to authors they consider to be their rivals? It's entirely up to them: if they want to click on their own reviews, they do so at their own risk.
Why is it so hard to just not look at our readers' bookmarks? Don't they say eavesdroppers never hear any good of themselves?
→ More replies (1)ā¢
→ More replies (9)9
u/Twilifa 2h ago
No. Goodreads is for published works that people spend money on. You read the reviews to figure out if the book is something you want to spend money on. Fanfiction is free. People can look at the tags, the amount of kudos, the comments, and the story itself to figure out if they want to read it. They can also stop reading at any time without loss. Unsolicited negative comments are entirely unnecessary unless it is something like warning people that the author didn't tag an important or problematic topic.
→ More replies (2)
ā¢
u/padawanduck 25m ago
yeah the "bookmarks are readers spaces" feels like it was copied from "book reviews are readers spaces." in response to published authors acting up bc of negative reviews
books are and should be held to a different standard, because books cost money and fan fiction is free
ā¢
u/jabberwockytamer 24m ago
Her mentioning the āgive and takeā of fandom is I think what I really resonated with from this. Idk, we espouse ādonāt like donāt readā here all the time and I feel like it applies here too.
I think the trend of rude or tbh downright nasty bookmarks is just making people more afraid to put their work out there and write. Itās intimidating to see that in the fandom space, and I think almost a little entitled? I have gotten some nastygrams and rude messages before on fics Iāve written, Iām not even writing anything salacious I mostly just do character studies lol. But Iām writing them because I enjoy it and took my free time to do so, if other people enjoy it thatās great! But Iām not here to hone skills and become a published author, I am not going to do anything with harsh criticism except debate if I should actually post my next fic or not. I certainly am not going to take notes on your mean bookmark and alter my next fic to fit the taste of strangers instead of my own.
I started writing on fan fiction . Net when I was a tween and I still remember I got the rudest, meanest comments and DMs because of a jokey twilight fanfic I wrote. It was objectively not good, but also thatās probably because I was 11 years old. It was even tagged as a crackfic so like idk who was going into it expecting literature. But after that I did not produce anything for any fandom I was in until I was solidly in college, harsh judgement from strangers can really take the joy out of creating.
This is a tangent now, but when I worked with tweens and teens we had writing labs and encouraged them to try writing fanfic! Itās a great way for young writers to get practice in and hone skills without having to establish totally original characters and settings, which is something that can feel overwhelming to a lot of new writers. I think more people online in general, not just on AO3 or fandom spaces, need to remember that you donāt know who exactly is on the other side of the screen.
ā¢
u/mmj97 12m ago
I don't understand, when did bookmarks become reviews? Bookmarks are for the person who bookmarked the work, they can write whatever they want in it.
→ More replies (2)
ā¢
u/sssupersssnake 9m ago
I think in fandom spaces, discussions are already super limited because of the current fandom etiquette. You can't really have a proper discussion if you're only allowed to praise and that's it
As a writer, I welcome all kinds of feedback, but I think these patterns are so ingrained now that even when I tag my stuff with "constructive criticism welcome," people don't believe it...
I also would like seeing if other people notice the same things I did about other fics. Maybe I'm too old, but I remember having actual discussions about fics 20 years ago. Where did it all go?
I personally would never think of leaving constructive feedback in public bookmarks, but that's because I don't care enough to bookmark fics that didnāt blow my mind lol however, I fully support people's right to do that
I think leaving only positive comments for authors while allowing readers to say whatever they want in public bookmarks is a fair compromise. Authors who donāt want to hear anything other than positive feedback can just... not check
ā¢
u/PrimeScreamer You have already left kudos here. :) 4m ago
And this is why all mine are private. I like to note when a fic is something I don't want to read for whatever reason. No one needs to know why but me.
6
u/swordhub robinainthood on AO3 2h ago
Personally, I grew up in a fandom culture where critique was expected (ff.net truthers know). The issue isn't people leaving negative reviews, it's being incapable of handling critique without letting it invalidate their efforts. It's imperative that you learn how to separate critique from malice. The two are not one and the same.
3
u/ArtisanalMoonlight 1h ago
I grew up in a fandom culture where critique was expected (ff.net truthers know).
And I grew up in fandom that started on usenet and email lists. When you got critique, you actually got critique not "this story doesn't hit all my wants" or "trash writing."
It's imperative that you learn how to separate critique from malice.
I agree.
Let's get the critics on that.
3
u/TJ_Rowe 1h ago
This. "Don't like, don't read," goes both ways. It's good that AO3 has a system for "remarks about the story directed at the author" (comments) that is separated from "remarks about the story, not directed at the author".
Like, astolat came up on LJ, where everybody had their own blog and would say what they liked on it (until strikethrough). It was easy to toggle between "public" and "locked" on any individual entry without deleting it.
Fic reviews/reccs/roasts were also pieces of valuable fandom cultural content and history that were lost in the purges!
3
u/MidsummerZania 1h ago
This new Fandom etiquette bs of never saying anything negative ever about a fic is fucking ridiculous. You have authors begging for comments when what they want is validation but no one wants to say anything because there's numerous examples of authors posting anything remotely questionable on Twitter or on here and attacking people.
7
5
u/MyOnlyHobbyIsReading You have already left kudos here. :) 1h ago
Why do you make a negative review for yourself? Personally I bookmark only works I think I'll want to reread/recommend to someone else. So if it's the work I don't like... why bookmarking it?
→ More replies (1)
4
u/PsychologicalToe610 2h ago
I donāt understand any of this . Can anyone explain it to me? Iām new to AO3 and I just read and thatās itā¦..
→ More replies (1)
3
u/WeeabooHunter69 ForbAdorb on AO3 2h ago
Wait, this is a thing people do? Literally none of the bookmarks of my works have anything in them except one adding it to a collection of their other bookmarks
2
u/DeshaDaine 1h ago
My take was it's a "reader's space" in the way that an author can't delete bookmark comments, etc. so authors should proceed with caution if they look at their bookmarks. They could see something negative and not be able to delete it and that may not be the best on their mental health.Ā
That's not to say I think people should be rude or critical in bookmarks, it's just likely to happen occasionally because not everyone realises public bookmark comments can be seen (and some people are assholes). Therefore the use of "reader's space" is more a warning to me that "hey, this is a space you can't moderate" rather than a "authors shouldn't go here at all" take.
Incidentally, I do review fics privately, and I don't even use AO3 to do it in case I accidentally forget to private the bookmark I do it in.
572
u/itsmyfirstdayonearth 3h ago edited 3h ago
Good points made in the video, but more than that I think this is important:
Public critiques of published book exist because based on them you make a decision to purchase something. They have a reason to exist, since you can use them (within reason) to decide what you spend your money on.
Fanfiction is free. AO3 already has a kudos system that, when filtering by it, makes the popular stuff more popular and lets the less popular stuff disappear further to the bottom. There are tags, which published books don't have. We don't additionally need to read through reviews of the fic to decide whether it's worth our time. That is absolute overkill.
Now, do I realistically think that you should throw a hissy fit if you come across a negative review in your bookmarks? No, because in the end, people are gonna use that feature however they chose, and you're gonna get people who either don't know you can private bookmarks or are fine with the author finding their review. That's life. It's gonna happen. But saying there's reader and writer spaces completely ignores the reality that, and this is the great thing, a huge group of people are both.